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"Rise and Fall" How to practice it? - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

"Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:57 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:22 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:24 am


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Alex123
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:29 pm

Hello all,

Does the actual moment of insight into, lets say, "Rise and Fall" has to come together with a thought about Rise&Fall? Or is the insight non-verbal, non-conceptual?


With best wishes,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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beeblebrox
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:44 pm

Thoughts rise and fall too. How do we view this? Is it with another thought? If so, how and where did this thought rise from? And how did it rise at the exact right moment just so you could use it to label another thought falling? Those are just few things to think about.

This is probably the main reason why we start with body to establish our mindfulness... it's less confusing that way.

:anjali:

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Alex123
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:49 pm

Hello Beeblebrox,

So what you are saying is that insight into Rise & Fall doesn't have to use thoughts?

Is it the same with any other insight, that concomitant thought is not-needed for actual insight to occur?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:09 pm


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Alex123
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:23 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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beeblebrox
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:36 pm

Well... I think that thoughts are necessary in the beginning, as long as they're appropriate (vitakka and vicara, initial thought and its application). I'm not sure if there's some confusion in between thoughts and citta. (I've never read abhidhammas.)

I don't really feel comfortable bringing my own experience into it, either. It's not that useful. I think that the best that we can do is just to share notes on what our understanding of the Dhamma is, and then trust each other to reconcile them with whatever our applications might be.

:anjali:

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Nyana » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:29 pm


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Alex123
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:10 pm

Hello Geoff,

Do I understand correctly the argument against samatha jhāna being that one can't have insight in the jhāna itself?

Why not? If Insight does not require concomitant thought, then why someone can't have direct insight while in samatha jhāna, and think about the insight and what it means only after emergence from samatha jhāna?

With metta,
Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

rowyourboat
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:52 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Nyana » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:16 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:22 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:24 am


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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Nyana » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:37 am


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reflection
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby reflection » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:53 am


rowyourboat
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:47 am

Tilt is in a fine mood in this thread.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Alex123
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:54 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Nyana
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Nyana » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:07 pm



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