Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

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Nyana
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Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by Nyana »

Here is a paper by Keren Arbel: Buddhist or Not? Thinking Anew the Role of the Jhānas in the Path of Awakening.
Jhana - Buddhist-or-Not.pdf
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Paper presented in "Buddhism in Asia." A Day Seminar with Prof. Jan Nattier and Prof. John McRae, Tel Aviv University.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by tiltbillings »

Interestingly unconvincing or confused or totally redefining jhana. If jhana is really a total, complete cessation of temptation by sensual pleasure, we have this, as she quoted:

‘I realized that when my father the Sakyan was working, while
I was sitting under the cool shade of the rose-apple tree, detached from sensual
pleasures and unwholesome states, I entered and abided in the first jhāna, which
is rapture and pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied with applied and
sustained thought."


Which would mean that the Buddha-to-be attained jhana as a kid outside a Dhammic context. The type of meditation experience, identified here as jhana, can be completely devoid of a Dhammic context, and it can sufficiently give a sense of freedom from physical sensual desire, and so it goes with the other levels of concentrative meditation. And let us not forget that DN 1.37 makes it quite clear that jhana can be a basis for serious wrong view. As L. Brasington states:
  • > There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the Jhanas.
    > We don't really know exactly what type of Jhanas the Buddha and his disciples were practicing.
    > Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more than a tool, what is really important is not so much which version you learn, but that you apply the jhanic state of mind to insight practice, either while still in the Jhana or immediately thereafter
It is not the jhana, in and of itself, that does it. It is only jhana in context of insight, but this essay does not really answer the question of how jhana should be understood within a Buddhist context.

What it seems she is trying to argue for is an integrated understanding of jhana in relation to insight; whereas, it seems that the commentaries separated to the two apart. With the the notion of vipassana jhanas, there is a practical reintegration of the the two based upon actual experience.

Anyway, another interesting voice in the jhana wars.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by Ben »

Thanks Geoff!
Thanks Tilt for getting the discussion going.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by Sanghamitta »

Interesting. Needs more thought. My initially response which will have to be revisited at leisure is that some of her points are convincing. And possibly timely. There is no other area in the actualisation of Dharma which gives rise to so much obvious self delusion.
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Nyana
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:It is not the jhana, in and of itself, that does it. It is only jhana in context of insight, but this essay does not really answer the question of how jhana should be understood within a Buddhist context.
This is obviously just a short presentation. I imagine that her dissertation, when completed, will examine this subject in much greater detail.
tiltbillings wrote:What it seems she is trying to argue for is an integrated understanding of jhana in relation to insight; whereas, it seems that the commentaries separated to the two apart.
It's worth exploring all of the relevant source materials. There are a few good questions regarding commentarial notions that are worth investigating and which haven't been thoroughly explored yet. I don't have the time or interest to look into these commentarial issues, but I think it's a good thing that there are people who do.
tiltbillings wrote:With the the notion of vipassana jhanas, there is a practical reintegration of the the two based upon actual experience.
Sammāsamādhi offers more than what is commonly presented as vipassanā jhāna. Awakening is not easy. The Pāli dhamma has a significant number of meditative practices which are effective for working directly with specific hindrances, and so on. Regarding these practices as unable to assist or induce insight isn't very helpful in the long run.

All the best,

Geoff
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:Sammāsamādhi offers more than what is commonly presented as vipassanā jhāna. Awakening is not easy. The Pāli dhamma has a significant number of meditative practices which are effective for working directly with specific hindrances, and so on. Regarding these practices as unable to assist or induce insight isn't very helpful in the long run.
I would not down play the "vipassana jhanas," given that they look a lot like what some call the sutta jhanas, but the thing that needs to be kept in mind that the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition is not averse to jhana in the more traditional forms. What we have with the Burmese vipassana traditions are very effective methods for cultivating the states of mind that help give rise to insight. One thing is experientially clear from those who have worked within those traditions is they are not as "dry" as as the commentarial literature's notion of "dry" insight would lead us to believe. After sotapanna, things seem to be a bit different in terms of practice.

Also, I never said anything about "these practices as [being] unable to assist or induce insight." Jhana, in and of itself, does not produce insight. Jhana is a factor among others that helps give rise to the conditions favorable to insight.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:I would not down play the "vipassana jhanas," given that they look a lot like what some call the sutta jhanas
I'm not downplaying them by any means. I think that they are necessary. If anything, I'm in favor of upgrading the status of other meditation practices that can be very helpful and liberating if used appropriately.
tiltbillings wrote:One thing is experientially clear from those who have worked within those traditions is they are not as "dry" as as the commentarial literature's notion of "dry" insight would lead us to believe. After sotapanna, things seem to be a bit different in terms of practice.
Sure.
tiltbillings wrote:Also, I never said anything about "these practices as [being] unable to assist or induce insight."
The statement wasn't directed at you.
tiltbillings wrote:Jhana, in and of itself, does not produce insight. Jhana is a factor among others that helps give rise to the conditions favorable to insight.
I'm all for the threefold training aggregations of ethical conduct, meditative composure, and discernment.

All the best,

Geoff
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reflection
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by reflection »

"I wish to reconsider the wide spread assumption in Buddhist scholarship and the Theravāda tradition, that the jhānas are not really Buddhist, but rather a Brāhma1ical-yogic technique which was integrated into the Buddhist meditational structure."

Afaik this is not that widespread, especially not in Theravada. While the meaning of jhana is discussed between meditative traditions, at least most that I know of teach some form or another. Or am I wrong here?

However this essay could be pointed towards some Zen traditions, where there does not seem to be any particular emphasis on jhana, or any meditative stages at all. Just sit and don't move, hehe. :sage:
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by Sanghamitta »

reflection wrote:"I wish to reconsider the wide spread assumption in Buddhist scholarship and the Theravāda tradition, that the jhānas are not really Buddhist, but rather a Brāhma1ical-yogic technique which was integrated into the Buddhist meditational structure."

Afaik this is not that widespread, especially not in Theravada. While the meaning of jhana is discussed between meditative traditions, at least most that I know of teach some form or another. Or am I wrong here?

However this essay could be pointed towards some Zen traditions, where there does not seem to be any particular emphasis on jhana, or any meditative stages at all. Just sit and don't move, hehe. :sage:
I beg to differ. I think that assumption IS widespread. I know many Theravadin Buddhists, including members of the ordained sangha who assume that " Jnana speak " is frequently tantamount to delusional identification with reified samsaric mind states that happen to be outside of the subjects usual functioning.
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by Keren Arbel »

Dear Dhamma friends,

Just today a friend sent me a link to this thread, and I am happy to see that my conference paper from 2007 produced some discussion on the jhànas and their place in the Buddhist path.

Just wanted to add that this paper presented only my initial and preliminary thoughts about the first jhàna, when I was just starting to write my PhD dissertation.

Since then I have developed my analysis of the fourfold jhàna model and its relation to other path factors considerably. The aim of the dissertation is to call into question some fundamental assumptions in the Buddhist tradition about the four jhànas in the Buddhist path to awakening by offering a theory regarding the nature and liberative role of the jhànas in the Pàli Nikàyas.

So please consider this paper as preliminary work which lacks all the appropriate references (since it was a conference paper) and wait for the complete research...:-) (almost finished)

Mettacittena,
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by tiltbillings »

Keren Arbel wrote:Dear Dhamma friends, . . .Mettacittena,
Keren Arbel.
Thank you for taking the time for your clarification. I hope that your dissertation, when you publish it, if you choose to, will be easily accessible to those of us who cannot afford Routledge prices. Any further papers that you have done since the above would be most welcome.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

tiltbillings wrote:Jhana, in and of itself, does not produce insight. Jhana is a factor among others that helps give rise to the conditions favorable to insight.
And insight, in and of itself, does not lead to the total cessation of sense desire. You can have all the insight in the world, but the Buddha is very clear in many, many suttas that such knowledge is still not perfectly applicable until one reaches Jhana.

Tranquility and insight are the pair of swift messengers the deliver one to Nibbana; tranquility is not the guy who polishes insight's boots before he goes out and does it alone.
Cula-dukkhakkhandha Sutta wrote:"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, and greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture and pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, and greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture and pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by tiltbillings »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Jhana, in and of itself, does not produce insight. Jhana is a factor among others that helps give rise to the conditions favorable to insight.
And insight, in and of itself, does not lead to the total cessation of sense desire. You can have all the insight in the world, but the Buddha is very clear in many, many suttas that such knowledge is still not perfectly applicable until one reaches Jhana.
Of course, the real question is: what is meant by jhana? Whose interpretation of it?

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 31#p137797" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

tiltbillings wrote:Of course, the real question is: what is meant by jhana? Whose interpretation of it?

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 31#p137797" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That seems to be your response to any objection towards the Mahasi method's undue emphasis on insight over tranquility, but I don't particularly buy it. The stock passages as well as longer discourses like the Anapanasati Sutta have far enough explanatory value to make the recourse to "Well what do you mean by Jhana?" not much more than a distraction.

I guess I should ask, what do you think is meant by Jhana? Whose interpretation of it?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna: Buddhist or not?

Post by tiltbillings »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Of course, the real question is: what is meant by jhana? Whose interpretation of it?

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 31#p137797" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That seems to be your response to any objection towards the Mahasi method's undue emphasis on insight over tranquility, but I don't particularly buy it.
It is not my response to "any objection towards the Mahasi's undue emphasis on insight over tranquility." It is simply the fact of the matter when it comes to the question of what jhana actually means, which we have seen in the various debates on the forum (many of which I have not been part of), opinions vary.
The stock passages as well as longer discourses like the Anapanasati Sutta have far enough explanatory value to make the recourse to "Well what do you mean by Jhana?" not much more than a distraction.
And regarding such terminology as vitaka and a vicara, can you say with absolute certainly what they mean? And it is not at all a distraction to ask the question. It is a reasonable question to ask of those who are jhana advocates.
I guess I should ask, what do you think is meant by Jhana? Whose interpretation of it?
The jhana that I was trained in by a Mahasi Sayadaw trained teacher and experienced is the sort of thing described in the Visuddhimagga. As to exactly what jhana means in the suttas, it seems opinions vary. Mostly, I don't give a rat's ass. I just do the practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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