"Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Nyana
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote: I haven't done a complete survey of all commentarial sources on this subject (it would require reading all of the relevant Aṭṭhakathā & Tīkā texts
And the question is: do you read Pali at that level?
I can understand the Aṭṭhakathā level of commentary, but commentarial Theravāda isn't a major focus or concern of mine. The canonical and para-canonical texts are.

All the best,

Geoff
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reflection
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by reflection »

Alex123 wrote:Hello Geoff,

Do I understand correctly the argument against samatha jhāna being that one can't have insight in the jhāna itself?

Why not? If Insight does not require concomitant thought, then why someone can't have direct insight while in samatha jhāna, and think about the insight and what it means only after emergence from samatha jhāna?

With metta,
Alex
The mind can't make decisive movements in absorption, so you can't get an insight within it, that's right. Why not? Because the will is shut down. But that's exactly the 'temporal disappearance' of the aggregate of volition, so to practice jhana is to practice insight into "rise and fall". As I've said before in other threads also, you can't take samadhi and vipassana apart.

The part you quoted can be interpreted in other ways. The 5 aggregates are suffering and impermanent, that's what it also means when the Buddha said they can disappear, they can nibbana. Depending on where we are on the path, we contemplate on this in different ways.

:namaste:
rowyourboat
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by rowyourboat »

Tilt is in a fine mood in this thread.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Alex123
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Reflection,
reflection wrote: The mind can't make decisive movements in absorption, so you can't get an insight within it, that's right. Why not? Because the will is shut down.
Thank you for your helpful post. The follow up question is this: Is "will" required to observe presently arisen Nāmarūpa? Maybe just consciousness, perception, feeling and so on.

Considering that will is often an expression of one kilesas, it can be a hindrance for insight, because one may look at what one wants to look at and avoid looking at what one doesn't want to look.

With best wishes,

Alex
Nyana
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Nyana »

reflection wrote:The mind can't make decisive movements in absorption, so you can't get an insight within it, that's right. Why not? Because the will is shut down. But that's exactly the 'temporal disappearance' of the aggregate of volition
No Pāli sutta or treatise accords with your notion that "the will is shut down" in jhāna or that the aggregate of volition has disappeared. Cetanā and numerous other saṅkhāras are all present in each jhāna.

All the best,

Geoff
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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by tiltbillings »

rowyourboat wrote:Tilt is in a fine mood in this thread.
Of course. I am always in a fine mood. Nice of you to notice, though such an observation really adds nothing to the thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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reflection
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by reflection »

Alex123 wrote:Hello Reflection,
reflection wrote: The mind can't make decisive movements in absorption, so you can't get an insight within it, that's right. Why not? Because the will is shut down.
Thank you for your helpful post. The follow up question is this: Is "will" required to observe presently arisen Nāmarūpa? Maybe just consciousness, perception, feeling and so on.

Considering that will is often an expression of one kilesas, it can be a hindrance for insight, because one may look at what one wants to look at and avoid looking at what one doesn't want to look.

With best wishes,

Alex
Hi Alex,

The will (or let's say volition) is not required to observe anything that is arisen. Volition does not observe. It is just an aggregate that is still a part of enlightened ones, but they are no longer attached to it. But knowing that intention shapes our karma, volition can lead us in the right direction, so it is not a defilement in itself. It depends on what you do with it, I guess.

Not looking at what one doesn't want to see, that's because of our attachments and that can certainly be a hindrance to insight. However, my main point is: Once you have seen things disappear it is much easier to see they are just a process. This is particularly true for volition.
Last edited by reflection on Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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reflection
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by reflection »

Ñāṇa wrote:
reflection wrote:The mind can't make decisive movements in absorption, so you can't get an insight within it, that's right. Why not? Because the will is shut down. But that's exactly the 'temporal disappearance' of the aggregate of volition
No Pāli sutta or treatise accords with your notion that "the will is shut down" in jhāna or that the aggregate of volition has disappeared. Cetanā and numerous other saṅkhāras are all present in each jhāna.

All the best,

Geoff
I think the quite in the OP is an excellent example of a sutta reference to what I'm talking about.

" Such are fabrications (volitions), such its origination, such its disappearance."

However, may I suggest us to keep this discussion in the appropriate thread about jhanas. I know your point of view by now. I think it doesn't really add to the discussion about various interpretations of rise and fall and how to practice it.

:namaste:
Nyana
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Nyana »

reflection wrote:I think the quite in the OP is an excellent example of a sutta reference to what I'm talking about.

" Such are fabrications (volitions), such its origination, such its disappearance."
No it isn't. Prof. William Chu:
  • Numerous suttas in the Nikayas talk about all the jhanas and bases as "attainments with residues of volitional formations" (Sankhāra-vasesasamāpatti). This is such a common observation that Bhikkhu Bodhi also makes this comment in Note #233 of his translation of the Connected Discourses (2000:792). These suttas state that the jhanas and bases are the "successive pacification of volitional formations." The base of neither perception nor non-perception, being the subtlest, is called "an attainment with a small residue of volitional formations." Even the Visuddhimagga explains these passages as meaning that all four of the mental functions, including intention, remain in all these states (337-338).

    One of my Ph.D students' dissertation happens to be on the comparison of numerous commentaries in Pali, Sanskrit, Chinese, and Tibetan on the issue of jhana and vipassana. One really needs to be very competent in at least two canonical languages to know what she's talking about when she's trying to undertake scholarly debates on sutta terminology.

    The evidence is overwhelmingly compelling that Visuddhimagga is the oddball in claiming that vipassana is to be practiced after jhanas. Such evidence comes from etymological, philological/textual evolutionary, nikaya-comparative perspectives.
reflection wrote:However, may I suggest us to keep this discussion in the appropriate thread about jhanas. I know your point of view by now. I think it doesn't really add to the discussion about various interpretations of rise and fall and how to practice it.
This discussion in this particular sub-forum necessarily includes discussion of jhāna as sammāsamādhi. Moreover, you're the one who brought this idea of volitionless jhāna into the present discussion. Your interpretation of rise-and-fall has no canonical basis whatsoever.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by daverupa »

Ñāṇa wrote:The evidence is overwhelmingly compelling that Visuddhimagga is the oddball in claiming that vipassana is to be practiced after jhanas.
Are we able to say, then, that the Vimuttimagga differs in this respect?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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reflection
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by reflection »

Ñāṇa wrote:
reflection wrote:I think the quite in the OP is an excellent example of a sutta reference to what I'm talking about.

" Such are fabrications (volitions), such its origination, such its disappearance."
No it isn't. Prof. William Chu:
  • Numerous suttas in the Nikayas talk about all the jhanas and bases as "attainments with residues of volitional formations" (Sankhāra-vasesasamāpatti). This is such a common observation that Bhikkhu Bodhi also makes this comment in Note #233 of his translation of the Connected Discourses (2000:792). These suttas state that the jhanas and bases are the "successive pacification of volitional formations." The base of neither perception nor non-perception, being the subtlest, is called "an attainment with a small residue of volitional formations." Even the Visuddhimagga explains these passages as meaning that all four of the mental functions, including intention, remain in all these states (337-338).

    One of my Ph.D students' dissertation happens to be on the comparison of numerous commentaries in Pali, Sanskrit, Chinese, and Tibetan on the issue of jhana and vipassana. One really needs to be very competent in at least two canonical languages to know what she's talking about when she's trying to undertake scholarly debates on sutta terminology.

    The evidence is overwhelmingly compelling that Visuddhimagga is the oddball in claiming that vipassana is to be practiced after jhanas. Such evidence comes from etymological, philological/textual evolutionary, nikaya-comparative perspectives.
reflection wrote:However, may I suggest us to keep this discussion in the appropriate thread about jhanas. I know your point of view by now. I think it doesn't really add to the discussion about various interpretations of rise and fall and how to practice it.
This discussion in this particular sub-forum necessarily includes discussion of jhāna as sammāsamādhi. Moreover, you're the one who brought this idea of volitionless jhāna into the present discussion. Your interpretation of rise-and-fall has no canonical basis whatsoever.

All the best,

Geoff
Not here, there is a special sticky topic for it. Go on there if you want to defend your points and I might reply there. I don't see how this discussion helps anybody with respect to the question in the OP of this topic. You can reply on my view about the question asked in more detail here, but what exactly a jhana is can be discussed elsewhere. I don't think Alex is really interested to see that discussion -which by the way is just a repetition of arguments- again. Or at least, I'm not. With all respect, you can quote 100 PhD thesis on pali literature on jhana, but you aren't going to convince me. Neither am I going to convince you, so I'm not even going to try. ;) Especially not in this topic. These are my last words on it here.

:namaste:


However, back to topic. I would like to correct something I said, which I partly came up with because of what you posted:
reflection wrote: disappearance' of the aggregate of volition,
What I said here was not totally correct. There is still a kind of volition in absorption, but it is not voluntary, so what disappears is the "will" as most people see it. The mind still goes in a certain direction. This is what probably is meant with "residual volition" in the suttas. However "the will" is not exactly the same as volition. The aggregates are like a soup of stuff, not always that clear to distinguish. Pardon me for mixing it up a bit. However what certainly does disappear in absorption is the decision making. And partly based on this you can begin to contemplate the non-self of the entire aggregate of volition. To come back to the question: This can partly be done discursively, but you can also contemplate on things without using too much words.

:namaste:

With metta,
Reflection
Last edited by reflection on Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Nyana
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:The evidence is overwhelmingly compelling that Visuddhimagga is the oddball in claiming that vipassana is to be practiced after jhanas.
Are we able to say, then, that the Vimuttimagga differs in this respect?
The Vimuttimagga is less restrictive in its treatment of jhāna than the Visuddhimagga. However, I think Dr. Chu is primarily referring to the numerous non-Pāli commentaries, which are quite explicit in including vipassanā as a mental quality employed in jhāna. (When it comes to Nikāya school commentarial opinions and interpretations I don't see any reason to privilege what remains of Tāmraparnīya Theravāda over other Sthaviravāda schools. They were all basing their interpretations on very similar redactions of discourses.)

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Nyana »

reflection wrote:I don't see how this discussion helps anybody with respect to the question in the OP of this topic.
Again, you're the one who brought this idea of volitionless jhāna into the present discussion.
reflection wrote:With all respect, you can quite 100 PhD thesis on pali literature on jhana, but you aren't going to convince me. Neither am I going to convince you, so I'm not even going to try.
The accepted standard is to support your assertions with canonical passages. This is both a common courtesy and a time-honored method of interpretive analysis.

The developmental path is about abandoning hindrances and eliminating outflows (āsavas). There is a spectrum of meditative states which can aid in this. But there is no good reason to maintain that jhāna is an entirely passive state. There is an important distinction to be discerned between the refinement of volitional intention and the absence of volitional intention. The former is much more conducive to developing and using an optimal samādhi at least until the attainment of the non-returner path. Inert meditative states are not ideal for training in heightened mind or heightened discernment. They all too easily become cocoons for zoning out.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Kenshou »

Ñāṇa wrote:The former is much more conducive to developing and using an optimal samādhi at least until the attainment of the non-returner path.
Would you mind elaborating on that?
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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Let us not turn this thread into another version of Jhana Wars. There is a thread for that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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