Can people be reborn in hell as a demon?

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Can people be reborn in hell as a demon?

Postby Orlando » Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:51 am

I was reading some of the gruesome depictions of hell in the suttas - usually I would have thought, the idea is that if you act really badly you are going to end up suffering in hell. However presumably in this set-up some kinds of people end up instead as the demons that torment people in hell? What kind of person might have that kind of rebirth according to tradition, and is there any way for such beings to achieve a higher rebirth?
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Re: Can people be reborn in hell as a demon?

Postby cooran » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:09 am

Hello Orlando,

If you have the time, this might be worth a read:

Hell and Heaven in Theravada Buddhism by Phramaha Somjin Sammapanno (Wanjan)
ABSTRACT
The purpose of this thesis is to study the concepts of hell and heaven in Theravada Buddhism by means of the sources which are Tipitaka scriptures, world science scriptures and some modern Buddhist literary works, to present the theory confirming that the hells and the heavens really exist as both lodging places and mental states, and to give the pictures of the development of the concepts of hell and heaven in Theravada Buddhism from ancient age to present.

In studying, the subject matter is divided into 5 chapters. An examination begins with an interpretation the worlds as the worlds of formation and location. Then the researcher shows that the ideas of worlds-beyond are related to the ideas of Four Kinds birth in Buddhism. Finally, the researcher will take the concepts of hell and heaven in Tipitaka scriptures, world science scriptures and modern Buddhist Literary works to an investigation.

World science scriptures can be viewed as an idea reflection of the 10th–15th century Buddhists, and modern Buddhist literary works as a belief reflection of the contemporary Buddhists.

As the results of study, we find that there are so many hell and heaven stories in Tipitaka scriptures. Only in the eighteenth volume of Tipitaka scriptures the hell is mentioned forty-six times, and heaven Seventy-five times. It is Remarkable that these hell and heaven statements usually denote the places where a sinful or virtuous man will take place after death. There so few hell and heaven statements in Tipitaka scriptures denote hells and heavens as the mental states or give the detailed pictures of the hells and heavens as in world science scriptures.

In world science scriptures the hells and heavens are mentioned as lodging places only. Comparing the concepts of hell and heaven in Tipitaks scriptures with the concepts of hell and heaven in latter scriptures, we find that there are some misconceptions about hell and heaven among some Buddhists who wrote latter scriptures.

The concepts of hell and heaven in modern Buddhist literary works can be divided into two groups :
1.Hells and heaven both lodging places and mental states.
2.Hells and heavens as only mental states.

According to the researcher, these different concepts are not contradictory. The hell and heaven teachings are the basic Themes of Buddhism. Though no one can empirically verify the hell and heaven statements in Buddhism, but by a coherence of the teachings related to hell and heaven concepts in Buddhism we can say that the hells and the heavens have their significance as a factor Kamma and Rebirth.
http://www.mcu.ac.th/En/thesisdetails.php?thesis=253301

with metta
Chris
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Re: Can people be reborn in hell as a demon?

Postby Aloka » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:50 am

Hi Orlando,

This talk "Where is Hell ?" from Ajahn Sumedho of the Theravada Thai Forest tradition might be helpful .

http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/index.php?id=40&file_id=674


with kind wishes,


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Re: Can people be reborn in hell as a demon?

Postby Johnny Teoh » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:59 pm

According to Siamese chronicle, all hell denizens (tormentor)come into being based on the unwholesome kamma (akusala) committed by individual hell being during his lifetime. : :cry: :console:
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Re: Can people be reborn in hell as a demon?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:09 am

Greetings Johnny,

And which "Siamese Chronicle" is that?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Can people be reborn in hell as a demon?

Postby BlackBird » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:14 pm

I have read something, I don't know where, but I do recall the source was relatively trustworthy. This something that I read indicated that 'demons' as you put it, are in fact Devas, that on the ripening of some sort of unwholesome kamma, have been assigned to torture those consigned to hell, they return to the Deva realm once their 'shift' is over. Those who take delight in carrying out their duties eventually have their roles reversed, while those that do not take delight in their duties face no further consequence.

Take the above with a grain of salt, I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has come across this explanation, I have an inkling it might be from a commentary or sub commentary but I'm really not sure.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Can people be reborn in hell as a demon?

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:51 pm

cooran wrote:Hello Orlando,

If you have the time, this might be worth a read:

Hell and Heaven in Theravada Buddhism by Phramaha Somjin Sammapanno (Wanjan)
ABSTRACT
The purpose of this thesis is to study the concepts of hell and heaven in Theravada Buddhism by means of the sources which are Tipitaka scriptures, world science scriptures and some modern Buddhist literary works, to present the theory confirming that the hells and the heavens really exist as both lodging places and mental states, and to give the pictures of the development of the concepts of hell and heaven in Theravada Buddhism from ancient age to present.


I clicked on the link to the thesis, but the text is in Thai.

The abstract left me with a few questions, though:

What are the "world science scriptures" which the author is referring to? Also, when he mentions "Buddhist literary works", are there any in particular he might be referring to?

What does he mean by "the hells and the heavens are the Basic Themes of Buddhism?
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Re: Can people be reborn in hell as a demon?

Postby Johnny Teoh » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:29 am

[url][/url]
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Johnny,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wWXgduo ... r_embedded
And which "Siamese Chronicle" is that?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Can people be reborn in hell as a demon?

Postby cooran » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:55 pm

Hello LazyEye,

You're correct. I did find further details when I first found the link, but can't seem to re-locate them now. Maybe just set that aside at the moment, I'll keep looking. Apologies for the foul-up.

with metta
Chris
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Re: Can people be reborn in hell as a demon?

Postby Lazy_eye » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:20 pm

cooran wrote:Hello LazyEye,

You're correct. I did find further details when I first found the link, but can't seem to re-locate them now. Maybe just set that aside at the moment, I'll keep looking. Apologies for the foul-up.

with metta
Chris


Hi Cooran,

No problem, and nothing to apologize for! My post wasn't intended as criticism of you for posting the link -- I just had some questions about the terms he was using.
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