Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

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Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby VictoryInTruth » Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:23 pm

Does all matter (rupa) have a denser vibrational form of energy? When reading about the aggregates of which matter is the first aggregate it states that matter consists of solidity, fluidity, heat or temperature and motion or vibration.

Is this vibrational quality of matter a denser form of energy? Does everything in the universe(s) consist of this vibrational energy...even an object such as a rock but on a denser level?

Thank you for your patience with my beginner questions.

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:08 pm

Greetings,

Not being an altogether simple question to answer, I'm going to move this from Discovering Theravada to the Meditation section for you.

(In case you're interested, the reason I decided to redirect to the Meditation forum is because I believe the question is best answered in terms of what you observe, analyse and experience... rather than being regarded as an objective scientific or ontological proposition. If others disagree we can move it elsewhere.)

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby Ben » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:56 pm

Greetings VictoryInTruth

From a non-scientist's point of view...
All matter consists of particles which are in a constant state of flux and movement. This is the vibrational characteristic of matter/rupa.
If you wish to examine the Elements in more detail, I suggest you read Ledi Sayadaw's Vipassana Dipani (Manual of Insight) but its not a work intended for beginners.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby daverupa » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:19 am

The point, surely, must be that no matter what description is given for the fundamental parts of nature, that same description applies to anything we might like to call Ours, and therefore, a Buddhist knows that whatever other characteristics it has, it has three in particular, and the only way to see those for oneself is to do anapanasati rather than speculate as to other characteristics.

This response may not be appropriate if the thread is moved to another category.

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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:32 am

VictoryInTruth wrote:Does all matter (rupa) have a denser vibrational form of energy? When reading about the aggregates of which matter is the first aggregate it states that matter consists of solidity, fluidity, heat or temperature and motion or vibration.

I prefer to think of the four great elements as properties, rather than building blocks. Our experience of matter may be classified according to it's hardness (or softness), cohesion (or lack thereof), hotness (or coldness), and motion/support (or not).
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dh%C4%81tu

Suttas on meditative practice, such as the Satipatthana Sutta, MN 10: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nysa.html discuss how the elements may be used to analyse experience.
See also: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... th%C4%81na

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:38 pm

The 'vibrational quality' that you mention is nothing but consciousness arising and passing away at great rapidity. You could argue via quantum physics that everything including consciousness is energy.

The qualities of a perception of form (rupasanna) such as hardness, heat etc can be detected in different ways in the different sense bases. It is important to keep in mind that the Buddha did NOT declare an existing world (kaccayanagotta sutta). He only saw experience arising due to the existence of ignorance. Rupa (or should I say the experience of rupa) should be seen in this light.

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby icyteru » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:28 pm

Yes. Even rock has electron that always moving around proton.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:15 am

rowyourboat wrote:You could argue via quantum physics that everything including consciousness is energy.
You could, but it would be nonsense.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby Ben » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:31 am

Mawkish1983 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:You could argue via quantum physics that everything including consciousness is energy.
You could, but it would be nonsense.


Thank you Keith!
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby haplo09 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:54 am

The short answer, maybe yes.
The best example i can think of is pair production.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby alan » Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:10 am

I really like Mike's response.
Lets make sure we keep this within an experiential domain. Theoretical constructs are not useful in this situation.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:26 am

Mawkish1983 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:You could argue via quantum physics that everything including consciousness is energy.
You could, but it would be nonsense.


I'm wondering whether Buddhists are generally mistrusting of science because science, especially physics have moved on from a Newtonian mechanistic view of the world. Quantum mechanics now seems to famously prove the idea that consciousness gives rise to mental and material phenomena (google double slit experiment), different planes of existences are possible and that everything pops in and out if existence at immense frequencies. This is not Buddhism per se but comes incredibly close to 'proving' some of it. I found 'what the bleep do we know' (a DVD on the topic) quite a good take on this issue (while not being specifically Buddhist).

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby alan » Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:53 am

I'm sorry to tell you this, but what you are saying is completely pointless. And it has nothing to do with Buddhism.
Plus, you are claiming something that has not been proven. I don't distrust science: I do distrust those who claim a new understanding based on a faulty understanding of the real meaning of science.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:01 am

alan wrote:I'm sorry to tell you this, but what you are saying is completely pointless. And it has nothing to do with Buddhism.
Plus, you are claiming something that has not been proven. I don't distrust science: I do distrust those who claim a new understanding based on a faulty understanding of the real meaning of science.
Agreed. There is no need to try to tie Buddhism to science.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:14 am

rowyourboat wrote:I'm wondering whether Buddhists are generally mistrusting of science because science, especially physics have moved on from a Newtonian mechanistic view of the world....

Because for those of us who actually work with quantum mechanics most of what is written about conciousness and QM is just silly (including a lot of stuff written by famous scientists stepping out of their area of expertise...).

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:08 am

rowyourboat wrote:
Mawkish1983 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:You could argue via quantum physics that everything including consciousness is energy.
You could, but it would be nonsense.
I'm wondering whether Buddhists are generally mistrusting of science
Given that my bachelor's degree is physics, and my master's degree is physics, and I have three years of doctorate-level research under my belt in physics, and I'm now a qualified physics teacher who is teaching physics this summer at the university before starting my job in September as a physics teacher at a prestigious grammar school, may I suggest that this Buddhist is not mistrusting of science?
rowyourboat wrote:Quantum mechanics now seems to famously prove the idea that consciousness gives rise to mental and material phenomena (google double slit experiment)
A bad misunderstanding of probability distribution functions and quantum phenomena. The uncertainty principle and observer effect are often confused. The link you make to consciousness is nonsense, as is the film you mention. As this is a Buddhist forum, can you tell us what this pervasive 'consciousness that gives rise to material phenomena' is? The English word 'consciousness' is not very useful in a Buddhist discussion and even less helpful in a physics discussion
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:17 pm

Mawkish, Mike- do you mind if I pm you both?
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:38 am

Hi RYB,

Feel free to PM me. However, I've stated my position many times that almost all these discussions of quantum mechanics and Buddhism and consciousness appear to me to be written by people who do not understand one or the other, or do not understand either. I don't want to sound dismissive, but I find that discussing these issues with physics graduates is not easy, so discussing them with someone who does not have at least that background is extremely difficult.

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby Freawaru » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:06 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi RYB,

Feel free to PM me. However, I've stated my position many times that almost all these discussions of quantum mechanics and Buddhism and consciousness appear to me to be written by people who do not understand one or the other, or do not understand either. I don't want to sound dismissive, but I find that discussing these issues with physics graduates is not easy, so discussing them with someone who does not have at least that background is extremely difficult.

:anjali:
Mike


As the subject seems to come up again and again maybe it would be a good idea to discuss it openly. Then one can refer or quote to the thread whenever the question arises again.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:14 am

Since this is in the meditative section, rather than side-tracking the discussion with issues that do not pertain to meditation, it might be worthwhile to discuss how the material elements are used as a meditative practice.

5. The Reflection on the Material Elements
And further, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, however it be placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the element of earth, the element of water, the element of fire, the element of wind."

Just as if, monks, a clever cow-butcher or his apprentice, having slaughtered a cow and divided it into portions, should be sitting at the junction of four high roads, in the same way, a monk reflects on this very body, as it is placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the elements of earth, water, fire, and wind."
-- MN 10.


The Reflection on the Modes of Materiality (Elements, Dhatu)
"And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the modes of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are in this body the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.'

"O bhikkhus, in whatever manner, a clever cow-butcher or a cow-butcher's apprentice, having slaughtered a cow and divided it by way of portions, should be sitting at the junction of a four-cross-road; in the same manner, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body, according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the modes of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are in this body the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.'
-- MN 10
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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