Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:
5. The Reflection on the Material Elements
And further, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, however it be placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the element of earth, the element of water, the element of fire, the element of wind."

Just as if, monks, a clever cow-butcher or his apprentice, having slaughtered a cow and divided it into portions, should be sitting at the junction of four high roads, in the same way, a monk reflects on this very body, as it is placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the elements of earth, water, fire, and wind."
-- MN 10.




Yes, this is a good one, though I prefer the 6-element version which adds on space and consciousness.

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:11 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
5. The Reflection on the Material Elements
And further, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, however it be placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the element of earth, the element of water, the element of fire, the element of wind."

Just as if, monks, a clever cow-butcher or his apprentice, having slaughtered a cow and divided it into portions, should be sitting at the junction of four high roads, in the same way, a monk reflects on this very body, as it is placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the elements of earth, water, fire, and wind."
-- MN 10.




Yes, this is a good one, though I prefer the 6-element version which adds on space and consciousness.

Spiny
Maybe; however, with space in particular there is an added level of complexity. There may be a reason why it is not part of the Satipatthana Sutta lists.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby Freawaru » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:29 am

VictoryInTruth wrote:Does all matter (rupa) have a denser vibrational form of energy? When reading about the aggregates of which matter is the first aggregate it states that matter consists of solidity, fluidity, heat or temperature and motion or vibration.

Is this vibrational quality of matter a denser form of energy? Does everything in the universe(s) consist of this vibrational energy...even an object such as a rock but on a denser level?

Thank you for your patience with my beginner questions.

:anjali:


Rupa (form) is constructed in our brain via the sensory input of the Somatosensory system and specific genetically designed mental patterns to interpret these information.

The somatosensory system is a diverse sensory system comprising the receptors and processing centres to produce the sensory modalities such as touch, temperature, proprioception (body position), and nociception (pain). The sensory receptors cover the skin and epithelia, skeletal muscles, bones and joints, internal organs, and the cardiovascular system. While touch (also, more formally, tactition; adjectival form: "tactile" or "somatosensory") is considered one of the five traditional senses, the impression of touch is formed from several modalities. In medicine, the colloquial term touch is usually replaced with somatic senses to better reflect the variety of mechanisms involved.

The system reacts to diverse stimuli using different receptors: thermoreceptors, nociceptors, mechanoreceptors and chemoreceptors. Transmission of information from the receptors passes via sensory nerves through tracts in the spinal cord and into the brain. Processing primarily occurs in the primary somatosensory area in the parietal lobe of the cerebral cortex.
The cortical homunculus was devised by Wilder Penfield.

At its simplest, the system works when activity in a sensory neuron is triggered by a specific stimulus such as heat; this signal eventually passes to an area in the brain uniquely attributed to that area on the body—this allows the processed stimulus to be felt at the correct location. The point-to-point mapping of the body surfaces in the brain is called a homunculus and is essential in the creation of a body image. This brain-surface ("cortical") map is not immutable, however. Dramatic shifts can occur in response to stroke or injury.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatosensory_system


An object such as "rock" is constructed by input of the mechanoreceptors,

A mechanoreceptor is a sensory receptor that responds to mechanical pressure or distortion. There are four main types in the glabrous skin of humans: Pacinian corpuscles, Meissner's corpuscles, Merkel's discs, and Ruffini corpuscles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanoreceptors


The Pacinian corpuscles are responsible for sensitivity to vibration and pressure.

Lamellar corpuscles or Pacinian corpuscles are one of the four major types of mechanoreceptor. They are nerve endings in the skin, responsible for sensitivity to vibration and pressure. Vibrational role may be used to detect surface e.g. rough vs. smooth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacinian_corpuscle


and so are the Meissner corpuscles:

Meissner's corpuscles (or tactile corpuscles) are a type of mechanoreceptor.[1] They are a type of nerve ending in the skin that is responsible for sensitivity to light touch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner%27s_corpuscle


while the Ruffini corpuscles are responsible to monitor movement.

This spindle-shaped receptor is sensitive to skin stretch, and contributes to the kinesthetic sense of and control of finger position and movement.[1] It is believed to be useful for monitoring slippage of objects along the surface of the skin, allowing modulation of grip on an object.


So it looks like there is actually a difference between motion and vibration. Vibration goes together with pressure (solidity/earth) and distortion while motion has it's own receptors.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby alan » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:01 am

I love science. I love that it is rational, and that it willingly throws away past assumptions when they are proven incorrect. I'm totally for applying a rationalist perspective on the social contract. You could say I'm a rational pragmatist.
But,
An assumption that the higher levels of physics has some relevance to our experiential existence seems suspect.
Alan's three rules of Quantum Mechanics clearly state:
1) You don't really understand it.
2) The handful of people on this planet who have the ability to get close to an understanding of it can't contextualize it in any meaningful way.
3) Because of that, it is always foolish to compare it with anything. Doing so invariably makes you look like a pompous ass. Don't be like that.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:09 am

alan wrote:I love science. I love that it is rational, and that it willingly throws away past assumptions when they are proven incorrect. I'm totally for applying a rationalist perspective on the social contract. You could say I'm a rational pragmatist.
But,
An assumption that the higher levels of physics has some relevance to our experiential existence seems suspect.
Alan's three rules of Quantum Mechanics clearly state:
1) You don't really understand it.
2) The handful of people on this planet who have the ability to get close to an understanding of it can't contextualize it in any meaningful way.
3) Because of that, it is always foolish to compare it with anything. Doing so invariably makes you look like a pompous ass. Don't be like that.
That is good, and now I wonder if the subject of rupa could be discussed as a meditation subject, since this is a meditation section. Otherwise this thread may need to find a new home.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby alan » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:19 am

Keep the focus on the subject that matters.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:25 am

alan wrote:Keep the focus on the subject that matters.
Matter matters as a subject of awaremess.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby alan » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:30 am

Seems we're in agreement on this matter.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:34 am

alan wrote:Seems we're in agreement on this matter.
And that is what is dense vibrations.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby alan » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:54 am

You're nothing if not dogged, tilt. I"ll give you that. And I admire it.
Just wondering if you get the joke. Sometimes, you seem too serious.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby Ben » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:55 am

I'm interested if and how people observe rupa, or the vibrational quality of rupa, in their meditative practice.
Thanks in advance.

Ben
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:02 am

alan wrote:You're nothing if not dogged, tilt. I"ll give you that. And I admire it.
Just wondering if you get the joke. Sometimes, you seem too serious.
What laughing matter is the matter with you?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:04 am

Ben wrote:I'm interested if and how people observe rupa, or the vibrational quality of rupa, in their meditative practice.
Thanks in advance.

Ben
Which i think would be an interesting matter to look at.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby Freawaru » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:20 am

Ben wrote:I'm interested if and how people observe rupa, or the vibrational quality of rupa, in their meditative practice.
Thanks in advance.

Ben


Usually, when I start to observe the vibrations of my body, they seem to be located at the area of the heart. I recall, when I first became aware of them, I worried that it might BE the heart and that I had some problems with it. The vibrations are too fast for a healthy pulse. But whenever I checked my pulse by usual means it was much slower. Also, I noticed that when I relaxed to it that the vibrations spread all through the body - a nice feeling. And, finally, when I contemplated the body vibrations in this way I became aware of the real beating of the heart, quite different than the vibrations. So I spend some time discerning: these are vibrations, this is the beating of the heart.

Since then I notice a difference of the vibrations of my body when I am ill or very tired. They are more unpleasant then.

There is another interesting phenomenon: some places, buildings, caves, objects, seem to have their own vibrations. I "sense" them when I am in those places or touch the objects. From a scientific point of view I don't yet know what is going on, what I sense, it might be just a difference of my own body vibrations due to some characteristic of these places or things. Has anyone else experienced this effect?
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:00 pm

VictoryInTruth wrote:Does all matter (rupa) have a denser vibrational form of energy? When reading about the aggregates of which matter is the first aggregate it states that matter consists of solidity, fluidity, heat or temperature and motion or vibration.

Is this vibrational quality of matter a denser form of energy? Does everything in the universe(s) consist of this vibrational energy...even an object such as a rock but on a denser level?

Thank you for your patience with my beginner questions.

:anjali:

If we are keeping this on the level of meditative experience, which is where I believe the analysis of the aggregates in this way is meant to be applied, then of course we should set aside questions about "everything in the universe." But it would still be possible to see how everything in the "universe" of experience is. That is - everything seen, heard, sensed, and cognized. Then the question - "does "everything" (in this sense) consist of vibrational energy?" could be realistically examined.

So in that respect, personally, I would say that the notions of solidity, fluidity, heat and vibration - but not just vibration alone - do a pretty good job of pointing out the aspects of what is known as "a cup of coffee" :coffee:
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:56 am

Greetings,
Ben wrote:I'm interested if and how people observe rupa, or the vibrational quality of rupa, in their meditative practice.

As vayo-dhatu (air element).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:32 am

Hi Retro, I think Ben is asking for some more details about vayo-dhatu.

As I understand it vayo-dhatu, "air element" includes properties of motion, vibration, and support/distension (e.g. the stiffness required to sit upright). So vibration is part of it, but not the whole thing. I imagine the model is that winds in the body cause the motion and stiffness.

E.g. http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dh%C4%81tu

:anjali:
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:54 am

Greetings Mike,

Personally I think that's over-engineering it.

The four great elements were a pre-existing scheme that the Buddha utilised simply as another means of classifying the concomitant aspects of experience. As with all the Buddha's classificatory schemes, they merely point to components of experience which possess the three characteristics.

How any given experience is perceived/classified is the dhamma to be analysed and understood - it matters not whether the perception/classification is objectively or ontologically correct. For example, someone with synaesthesia might "see" sounds, but there's no good trying to tell them that their perception is somehow false and incorrect because it doesn't adhere to pre-defined classificatory boundaries. Whether one files an experience in this box or that box doesn't matter so long as what is filed away is known to be dukkha, anicca and anatta.

MN 1 wrote:"A monk who is a Worthy One, devoid of mental fermentations... directly knows the experience of air as air. Directly knowing the experience of air as air, he does not conceive things about air, does not conceive things in air, does not conceive things coming out of air, does not conceive air as 'mine,' does not delight in air. Why is that? Because, with the ending of delusion, he is devoid of delusion, I tell you.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby Ben » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:30 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Retro, I think Ben is asking for some more details about vayo-dhatu.

As I understand it vayo-dhatu, "air element" includes properties of motion, vibration, and support/distension (e.g. the stiffness required to sit upright). So vibration is part of it, but not the whole thing. I imagine the model is that winds in the body cause the motion and stiffness.

E.g. http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dh%C4%81tu

:anjali:
Mike


Thanks Mike.
Yes. I wish to keep this thread focused on how it relates to one's meditative practice. If one has rupa (or the qualities of rupa) as meditation object, how one does that and what are your observations.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
Personally I think that's over-engineering it.

Hardly, I'm just explaining what I understand the words to mean in the context the Buddha was teaching in: Hardness, heat, etc... I don't see any evidence that he was redefining them.

In order to answer Ben's question about meditative experience we have to have some idea of what the words mean. If we're talking about wind element, then, as I said, one perceives it in motion and vibration of moving limbs, in the force one uses to stay upright, and so on...

:anjali:
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