Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Even if back then they took the 4 elements thing literally, that doesn't disqualify the qualities that have been classically categorized under the 4 elements as objects of contemplation for the form aggregate. No need to throw out the baby with the bath etc.
Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Keep the qualities (the baby,) throw out their categorization (the bath water.)Kenshou wrote:Even if back then they took the 4 elements thing literally, that doesn't disqualify the qualities that have been classically categorized under the 4 elements as objects of contemplation for the form aggregate. No need to throw out the baby with the bath etc.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Sure. Though I think the categories are fine enough, as long as we remember that they're just names and not literal elements.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Greetings Mike,
The sutta explains what is experienced and how it is to be discerned. Simple.
Metta,
Retro.
One does them as the Buddha instructs.mikenz66 wrote:Sure. Which is why I don't understand what you are trying to argue exactly. Ben asked how one does these contemplations.
The sutta explains what is experienced and how it is to be discerned. Simple.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Of course.retrofuturist wrote: One does them as the Buddha instructs.
Yes. And I have no reason to doubt that he was talking about experiencing hardness, motion, etc.retrofuturist wrote: The sutta explains what is experienced and how it is to be discerned. Simple.
I must be completely misunderstanding you, because I simply cannot figure out what else the suttas could be talking about. Are you saying that he was not talking about hardness, motion, and other such perceptions?
Mike
Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Because you can't directly observe, in meditation, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen in the body. So that would be useless for the analysis of experience.Viscid wrote: Why not think today, instead of terms of the four dhatus, that the body is composed of hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen? It accomplishes the same thing, with far less factual inaccuracy.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Greetings Mike,
So when Ben asks, "I'm interested if and how people observe rupa, or the vibrational quality of rupa, in their meditative practice", the answer is in accordance with the Buddha's instruction. A relevant portion of which is...
Are you assuming we need to go hunting for the wind property in order to initiate the above process?
Are you assuming that the qualitative experience of the wind property itself actually matters, other than that it has the three characteristics?
Are you assuming that the "wind property" needs to be formally designated as one's primary meditation subject, to the exclusion of other experiences?
Are you assuming that adhering to the Buddha's instructions requires a separate unstated "technique"?
I'm not having a go at you in asking those questions - I'm just trying to drill down to possible reasons why you might find my response confusing or incomplete - it's an attempt to resolve that underlying confusion.
Metta,
Retro.
No - I'm just saying we do the meditation in accordance with the Buddha's instruction.mikenz66 wrote:I must be completely misunderstanding you, because I simply cannot figure out what else the suttas could be talking about. Are you saying that he was not talking about hardness, motion, and other such perceptions?
So when Ben asks, "I'm interested if and how people observe rupa, or the vibrational quality of rupa, in their meditative practice", the answer is in accordance with the Buddha's instruction. A relevant portion of which is...
Rightly or wrongly, I'm guessing you're confused by my response because you're assuming that it's incomplete and that there should be something more to it, perhaps? Some unstated ingredient?MN 28 wrote:The wind property may be either internal or external. What is the internal wind property? Whatever internal, belonging to oneself, is wind, windy, & sustained: up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the stomach, winds in the intestines, winds that course through the body, in-&-out breathing, or whatever else internal, within oneself, is wind, windy, & sustained: This is called the internal wind property. Now both the internal wind property and the external wind property are simply wind property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the wind property and makes the mind dispassionate toward the wind property.
Are you assuming we need to go hunting for the wind property in order to initiate the above process?
Are you assuming that the qualitative experience of the wind property itself actually matters, other than that it has the three characteristics?
Are you assuming that the "wind property" needs to be formally designated as one's primary meditation subject, to the exclusion of other experiences?
Are you assuming that adhering to the Buddha's instructions requires a separate unstated "technique"?
I'm not having a go at you in asking those questions - I'm just trying to drill down to possible reasons why you might find my response confusing or incomplete - it's an attempt to resolve that underlying confusion.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Yeah, I guess I may have misinterpreted the meditation as imagining the body as merely a product of constituent elements rather than it being a focus on its sensations. However, it'd still be preferable to interpret bloating as bloating, not as some imaginary 'wind element.' It's simply unnecessary.kirk5a wrote:Because you can't directly observe, in meditation, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen in the body. So that would be useless for the analysis of experience.Viscid wrote: Why not think today, instead of terms of the four dhatus, that the body is composed of hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen? It accomplishes the same thing, with far less factual inaccuracy.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
No hunting necessary. My position is very straightforward. In the context it is clear that the wind property has to do with motion, and the earth property with hardness, etc. No need to hunt for those, simply necessary to follow the instructions and observe them:retrofuturist wrote: Are you assuming we need to go hunting for the wind property in order to initiate the above process?
"Furthermore...just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body — however it stands, however it is disposed — in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.'
Mike
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
But it would be useless for Awakening. One cannot directly know hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen. The chemical elements are beyond perception. Not to mention baryons and leptons. But one can perceive and directly know the tactile elements.Viscid wrote: Why not think today, instead of terms of the four dhatus, that the body is composed of hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen? It accomplishes the same thing, with far less factual inaccuracy.
Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Oops, had not seen your post.kirk5a wrote:Because you can't directly observe, in meditation, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen in the body. So that would be useless for the analysis of experience.Viscid wrote: Why not think today, instead of terms of the four dhatus, that the body is composed of hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen? It accomplishes the same thing, with far less factual inaccuracy.
Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Sorry for the late intrusion.
I wonder if the equation of rūpa with matter might not be an inadvertent effect of a translation quirk by BB, who sought to improve on Ven Nanamoli's original rendering of cakkhuvinneya rūpa (eye cognisable forms) and rūpakhandha with the uniform "form"? BB achieved this by distinguishing the latter from the former by the addition of "material".
It seems as if there is an unspoken premise that rūpakhandha refers to our kaya/body. On this score, the Khajjaniya Sutta's reference to rūpa which is ruppati (vexed/deformed) by flies, heat etc could be read as making the equation between rūpa and kaya. However, I think wordplay involving 2 etymologically unrelated words is probably not going to be conclusive for such an important doctrinal issue.
Against the Khajjaniya Sutta, you have abundant suttas which actually distinguish the body/kaya from rūpa as follows -
Rūpa is given a three-fold enumeration by the Sangiti Sutta, DN 33 as follows -
1. sanidassana-sappatigha (visible and impinging)
2. anidassana-sappatigha (invisible and impinging)
3. anidassana-appatigha (invisible and non-impinging).
Leaving aside the later Abhidhammic analysis of this sutta and of rūpa in general, I wonder if the suttas might not have contemplated something else for rūpa and the 4 great dhatus. I tend to agree with Mike that the dhatus are simply qualitative aspects of experience. This would suggest that rūpa is probably less "ontically" substantial than what we customarily take it to be, whether as matter or as energy.
I wonder if the equation of rūpa with matter might not be an inadvertent effect of a translation quirk by BB, who sought to improve on Ven Nanamoli's original rendering of cakkhuvinneya rūpa (eye cognisable forms) and rūpakhandha with the uniform "form"? BB achieved this by distinguishing the latter from the former by the addition of "material".
It seems as if there is an unspoken premise that rūpakhandha refers to our kaya/body. On this score, the Khajjaniya Sutta's reference to rūpa which is ruppati (vexed/deformed) by flies, heat etc could be read as making the equation between rūpa and kaya. However, I think wordplay involving 2 etymologically unrelated words is probably not going to be conclusive for such an important doctrinal issue.
Against the Khajjaniya Sutta, you have abundant suttas which actually distinguish the body/kaya from rūpa as follows -
This formula is found in the typical DN 2 fruits refrain, as well as suttas such as MN 74. It seems pretty clear that rūpa is distinct from the body, and appears to be predicative instead.ayaṃ kho me kāyo rūpī cātummahābhūtiko mātāpentikasambhavo ...
This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father ...
Rūpa is given a three-fold enumeration by the Sangiti Sutta, DN 33 as follows -
1. sanidassana-sappatigha (visible and impinging)
2. anidassana-sappatigha (invisible and impinging)
3. anidassana-appatigha (invisible and non-impinging).
Leaving aside the later Abhidhammic analysis of this sutta and of rūpa in general, I wonder if the suttas might not have contemplated something else for rūpa and the 4 great dhatus. I tend to agree with Mike that the dhatus are simply qualitative aspects of experience. This would suggest that rūpa is probably less "ontically" substantial than what we customarily take it to be, whether as matter or as energy.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
Ven Sariputta seems to suggest that the dhathus refer to the different phases of matter- solid, liquid, gaseous and plasma .. well in line with classical physics.
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?
The point is not, as in the physical sciences, to develop an exhaustive and exclusive accounting of the constituency of matter, but rather to develop an exhaustive and exclusive modality for describing the possible range of human experience in order to showcase three characteristics which inhere: anicca, dukkha, anatta. The four elements are thus intended to be understood together as fully encompassing human experience, not teased apart so that one can set about tabulating objects.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]