Did anyone here attain jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Ben
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Ben »

Hi alan,
alan wrote:Hi Ben. Agree with most of what you say, but I don't get the fruit simile. It doesn't seem to follow that people of high attainment will always be humble. And should we take humbleness as a sign of high awareness? That seems to create its own problems.
My observation has been that the more one develops in panna the more humility one also develops. And to a certain extent, it has also been my experience as well. And let me make it quite clear that I claim no attainments. Its my contention that humility and gratitude are artefacts of real progress.
kind regrds

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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alan
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by alan »

Agreed. But "humbleness" in and of itself is often confused with progress. I've met more than a few "humble" people who put on that facade. Not you of course!
I like the fact that you changed the words to humility and gratitude. There is a real difference.
I believe that words matter. Proper words influence perceptions for the better. Improper words create all kinds of problems.
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Ben
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Ben »

I understand exactly where you are coming from Alan.
Yes, conceit is such an insidious problem.
And I'm happy that greater clarification on my part you can understand my position as well!
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Freawaru
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Freawaru »

Ben wrote:
One thing that Valerie touched on earlier which was incredibly insightful is that its through one's behaviour that one's progress on the path is most accurately reflected. The other thing I want to say is that with progress comes humilty. The greater the progress, the greater the humility.
Which definition do you use?
Humility (adjectival form: humble) is the quality of being modest, and respectful. Humility, in various interpretations, is widely seen as a virtue in many religious and philosophical traditions, being connected with notions of transcendent unity with the universe or the divine, and of egolessness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humility" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is my experience and observation that many people (though probably not all) actually become uncertain and doubtful after strong meditative experiences. Because they don't know what they mean. Most of us don't grow up in a religious culture and meditation is generally considered as something only freaks do (except if done against stress at work). I still don't like to mention that I meditate because people usually look so strange at me. Not knowing what an experience was or is just increases this conditioning. And the question and worries stay. But when one provides people with a name and a theory of their experience, a label, something to understand rationally, and tells them what it means and how to go on from this, they are usually reassured. They don't linger on the past experience once they know what it was. But as long as one has no idea what it (or they) were one still keeps this question in the back of one's mind and worries what it was.
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

daverupa wrote:It shouldn't be a matter of "having the experience", it should be a matter of becoming enthused by seeing the truth of the Dhamma.
I agree, but for me pitta and sukha are very nourishing to my overall practice, so they're helpful.

Spiny
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Sanghamitta wrote:Reading around the posts of others and cross referring one can often get a feel for the overall tenor of an individuals mindset, and I have never yet been convinced of anyone's online claims to Jnana states.
Why so suspicious?

Spiny
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

alan wrote: And should we take humbleness as a sign of high awareness? That seems to create its own problems.
I agree. It could just be lack of confidence.

Spiny
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Sanghamitta »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Sanghamitta wrote:Reading around the posts of others and cross referring one can often get a feel for the overall tenor of an individuals mindset, and I have never yet been convinced of anyone's online claims to Jnana states.
Why so suspicious?

Spiny

I dont think Jnana states are available to lay people in normal circumstances.
Not because they are lay per se. But because the lifestyle and commitments of a lay person mitigate the attainments of such states in our cultures.

I think a small group of people however mistake unusual mind states for Jnana. When they are in fact mundane , but unusual. And those that make those claims are frequently characterised by defensive and argumentative behaviour. This is firmly my view. I know for a fact that it is widely shared by a number of teachers.
Last edited by Sanghamitta on Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ytrog
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Ytrog »

I agree that it is dangerous to talk about one's own attainments. Bhikkus are forbidden to discuss that towards lay people even and for good reasons.

What I don't agree with, however is the argument that it should only be discussed privately with one's teacher and not online. Many people here come to a forum like this for the very reason they don't have acces to a teacher (in person) and for discussing one's personal experiences we even have a special sub-forum.

I think it is ok for people who don't have acces to teachers to describe their personal experiences, so they can get feedback and find out what happened. Just don't claim anything, just describe.

IMHO this forum was founded to be the teacher for those who don't have acces to one in any other way. We are lucky to have many experienced meditators here, some even bhikkus, who can help all the others (like me ;)) here.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.
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Ben
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Ben »

Ytrog wrote:IMHO this forum was founded to be the teacher for those who don't have acces to one in any other way.
No it wasn't.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Sanghamitta wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Sanghamitta wrote:Reading around the posts of others and cross referring one can often get a feel for the overall tenor of an individuals mindset, and I have never yet been convinced of anyone's online claims to Jnana states.
Why so suspicious?

Spiny
I think a small group of people however mistake unusual mind states for Jnana.
Yes, entirely possible. But what you said above was "I have never yet been convinced of anyone's online claims to Jnana states" which seems to me an incredibly sweeping statement.

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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Sanghamitta »

I have never been convinced of a single persons online claims to any Jnanic states. Ever.

Interestingly I have never encountered such claims offline.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Ytrog
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Ytrog »

Ben wrote:
Ytrog wrote:IMHO this forum was founded to be the teacher for those who don't have acces to one in any other way.
No it wasn't.
Ok, maybe I'm wrong about this. What is the "mission" of this forum exactly? I thought it would be mainly to provide an online place for people to exchange experiences, help each other out with their practice and provide a platform for discussion of the Dhamma.

Especially the "helping each other out with their practice" part would mean that some here would teach others and guide them. :anjali:
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.
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Ben
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Ben »

Greetings Ytrog,
Ytrog wrote:
Ben wrote:
Ytrog wrote:IMHO this forum was founded to be the teacher for those who don't have acces to one in any other way.
No it wasn't.
Ok, maybe I'm wrong about this. What is the "mission" of this forum exactly? I thought it would be mainly to provide an online place for people to exchange experiences, help each other out with their practice and provide a platform for discussion of the Dhamma.

Especially the "helping each other out with their practice" part would mean that some here would teach others and guide them. :anjali:
I don't think we've formally provided a mission statement for Dhamma Wheel. The intent was to provide an online environment for the discussion of the Dhamma and for those seeking companionship on the path with like-minded people. Membership of Dhamma Wheel is open for all those who have a genuine interest in the Theravada. Implicit within that is mutual support. Dhamma Wheel was not set up to give a platform for those who are eager to wear the mantle of teacher, ariya or a latter-day buddha. Dhamma Wheel was never intended to bring together people who are interested in the Dhamma so that others can take advantage of them emotionally or financially.

We have been eager to advise members who are seeking the advice of a teacher to do so outside of the cyber-environment. In the absence of a teacher then the counsel of long-standing practitioners within a particular teacher's "lineage" or teaching method, or to attend retreats within a particular respected tradition or to access printed material available from respected authors. If you are wishing to discuss your meditative experience and if it is in the absence of a student-teacher relationship, then I suggest you do so with someone that is much more experienced than you within the particular tradition or methodology you are practicing in whom you have a great deal of confidence.

The great benefit of the Internet is that it has increased access to the Dhamma to everyone that was unimaginable twenty-five years ago. You are also able to contact respected teachers via email, monasteries, meditation and retreat centres and places like Dhamma Wheel, co-habit the virtual space with people from all around the world from every spectrum of Theravada practice who have different levels of practice and understanding.
The problem with the online environment is that it is very easy for charletains and the deluded to fraudulently misrepresent themselves and convince others of their status as monastics, as someone having this or that "attainment" and/or their role as teachers. Claims of attainment are something that is impossible to verify or completely discount and becomes an appeal to authority that can be almost irresistible among those who may be a little naive, or beginners or those are also desperately seeking similar attainments or meditative experiences. And there are forums for those, that I mentioned earlier, are full of people who are fooling themselves by self-referentially claiming and acknowledging each other's bogus claim.

Just this weekend we had one person join this site who claimed himself to be a "buddha". When I investgated the individual I noted his website where he was promoting himself as a self-help guru, having two awakenings and was selling copies of his self-help manual. On another Buddhist discussion board I noted that he joined so that he could help others and teach them. For most practitioners the person in question would be an amusing curiosity but for others who maybe less experienced, he has the potential to take them down a wrong path.

My apologies for the long-winded reply.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Sanghamitta wrote:I have never been convinced of a single persons online claims to any Jnanic states. Ever.

Interestingly I have never encountered such claims offline.

I don't think people are making "claims", they're just trying to describe their experience. Offline I've met a number of people who've talked about experiencing jhanic states and I have/had no reason to disbelieve them - it wasn't like they were boasting or anything.

Anyway, perhaps we should leave it there.

Spiny
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