Mental Noting

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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mikenz66
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by mikenz66 »

I'd like to revive this quote:
ancientbuddhism wrote: The main point that I have taken from this system is to train awareness to be present with what is arising – changing – falling. The satipaṭṭhāna refers to direct knowledge (pajānāti) of these conditions, so consider the Mahasi method as a tool box method to develop this.
Because it seems to me that some of the discussion here heads in quite a different direction to the point of the noting method (or any "vipassana" method, such as what Goenka teaches), which is to get one focussed continuously on whatever is arising in the present.

What one sees arising is things like "pain", "lifting", "hard". The actual experiences. Those experiences do, of course, have characteristics such as anicca, and can be analysed in terms of various satipatthanas, but if one is sitting there thinking "oh I'm seeing the anicca in my breath", that's just mental proliferation, not actual paying attention to experience.

U Vivekananda http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/186/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.panditarama-lumbini.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; a student of U Pandita, often emphasises that when students come to him to report experiences he does not want such proliferation, or any Pali terminology. He wants to know what the experienced. What did they feel when they lifted their foot?

The noting is not a story, it's a focussing technique. And the continuous focus is the goal, not the particular trick used to get focussed.

:anjali:
Mike
daverupa
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by daverupa »

The more these various methods are explained, the more sense they make. In this specific instance, the practice seems to be in accord with the principle of using the Dhamma to think with, not to think about, and this approach appears useful for many. If such methods are conducive to the subsidence of tanha, that they should be popular strikes me as enormously wholesome. It seems to fulfill satipatthana, at any rate.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mikenz66
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes, it's important to understand what different teachers are trying to get at. I should make it clear that I'm not claiming that one shouldn't sometimes do some conceptual analysis of experience. But as I understand it conceptual analysis is not the intention what is taught by Mahasi-style teachers. What is taught is to drop the proliferation and get closer to:
"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. ...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

daverupa wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Kenshou wrote:Is 6 too many? There's always the 5 aggregates, or you could really simplify it and go to nama-rupa, 2 categories.
The problem I have with using the aggregates as labels is getting involved in the technicalities, eg does memory come under perception? :juggling: :D

Spiny
The six sense bases mode is fantastic here.
Do you mean for example "hearing", "smelling" etc?

Spiny
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

mikenz66 wrote:The noting is not a story, it's a focussing technique. And the continuous focus is the goal, not the particular trick used to get focussed.
I agree. I think it's useful to become familiar with a number of different tools from the box ( we're all different ) and discussions like this are useful from that point of view.

Spiny
daverupa
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by daverupa »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Do you mean for example "hearing", "smelling" etc?
Basically. It lets any mental activity go into one heap and doesn't provide an easy excuse to proliferate.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

daverupa wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Do you mean for example "hearing", "smelling" etc?
Basically. It lets any mental activity go into one heap and doesn't provide an easy excuse to proliferate.
Yes, I see. Sometimes I just group mental activity into past and future, eg "planning" or "replaying", which seems to cover most of it. ;)

Spiny
Jack
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by Jack »

Here are the noting labels as developed by Kenneth Folk and based on the 4 Foundations of Mindfulness. "You are unenlightened to the extent that you are embedded in your experience. You think that your experience is you. You must dis-embed. Do that by taking each aspect of experience as object (looking at it and recognizing it) in a systematic way. Then, surrender entirely.

1) Objectify body sensations. If you can name them, you aren't embedded there. Notice sensations and note to yourself: "Pressure, tightness, tension, release, coolness, warmth, softness, hardness, tingling, itching, burning, stinging, pulsing, throbbing, seeing, tasting, smelling, hearing." If I am looking at something it is not "I".

2) Objectify feeling-tone. Are sensations pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral? If you can sit there for five minutes and note pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral every few seconds, you are not embedded at that layer of mind.

3) Objectify mind states. Investigation, curiosity, happiness, anxiety, amusement, sadness, joy, anger, frustration, annoyance, irritation, aversion, desire, disgust, fear, worry, calm, embarrassment, shame, self-pity, compassion, love, contentment, dullness, sleepiness, bliss, exhilaration, triumph, self-loathing. Name them and be free of them. These mind states are not "you;" we know this because if there is a "you" it is the one who is looking, not what is being looked at. Below, we will challenge the notion that there is any "you" at all.

4) Objectify thoughts. Categorize them: planning thought, anticipating thought, worrying thought, imaging thought, remembering thought, rehearsing thought, scenario spinning thought, fantasy thought, self-recrimination thought. Come up with your own vocabulary and see your thoughts as though they belong to someone else. The content of your thoughts is not relevant except to the extent that it helps you to label and therefore objectify them."

A suggestion is to start a meditation session by counting your breaths, for example count to 10 3 times. Then switch to noting using the above categories. Note quickly. A note every 2-3 seconds is good. This prevents you from thinking. Just react. If you can’t come up with a word, use a generic term such as sensation or thought or emotion. After a little practice link the categories, for instance, pressure, unpleasant, itch, unpleasant, coolness, pleasant.

jack
buddhajunkie
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by buddhajunkie »

mikenz66 wrote: Because it seems to me that some of the discussion here heads in quite a different direction to the point of the noting method (or any "vipassana" method, such as what Goenka teaches), which is to get one focussed continuously on whatever is arising in the present.

What one sees arising is things like "pain", "lifting", "hard". The actual experiences. Those experiences do, of course, have characteristics such as anicca, and can be analysed in terms of various satipatthanas, but if one is sitting there thinking "oh I'm seeing the anicca in my breath", that's just mental proliferation, not actual paying attention to experience.
The thing that gets me is that "actual experiences" are composites of all sorts of stuff. So what, of all those stuff that comprise "actual experience," do we pay attention to?

My interpretation of the 4 foundations is to pay more attention to certain aspects of experience, specifically, body, feelings, mind states and Dhamma.

Is this correct, or would you say that the goal is something more like "bare attention"?
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mikenz66
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by mikenz66 »

buddhajunkie wrote: The thing that gets me is that "actual experiences" are composites of all sorts of stuff. So what, of all those stuff that comprise "actual experience," do we pay attention to?
I think the advice is to pay attention to as much as you can, as continuously as you can. But that depends a lot on the particular circumstances. Several days into a retreat is very different from a normal day at work...
buddhajunkie wrote: My interpretation of the 4 foundations is to pay more attention to certain aspects of experience, specifically, body, feelings, mind states and Dhamma.
Sure. I tend to start with focussing mainly on body, then feelings, then mind states. But to me the idea is to work through various objects as a way of training oneself to notice them until it becomes very automatic. So I do notice things like in the list you provided above, but my aim is not to be classifying them: "Hmm pain, that's vedana... Umm... sad ... oh, that's a mind state..."
Rather, my aim is to just focus on the most prominent object: "Lifting, moving, lowering, touching, hardness, pain, sad, lifting, wobbling, thinking, ... "
buddhajunkie wrote: Is this correct, or would you say that the goal is something more like "bare attention"?
I'm a bit wary of the term "bare attention" because there seem to be various ways of interpreting it.

:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:I'm a bit wary of the term "bare attention" because there seem to be various ways of interpreting it.
Maybe "bare attention" is worth a careful look, and new thread. That will give me something to do later today.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes, that would be interesting. I'd better search out my copy of Ven Nyanaponika's HEART OF BUDDHIST MEDITATION...
Actually, here's a scan of the relevant section: http://www.alexox.com/sangha/bareattention.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by buddhajunkie »

mikenz66 wrote:Yes, that would be interesting. I'd better search out my copy of Ven Nyanaponika's HEART OF BUDDHIST MEDITATION...
Actually, here's a scan of the relevant section: http://www.alexox.com/sangha/bareattention.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike

Interesting excerpt, thanks.

Do you recommend this book for someone interested in reading in depth about the 4 foundations?
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

buddhajunkie wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Yes, that would be interesting. I'd better search out my copy of Ven Nyanaponika's HEART OF BUDDHIST MEDITATION...
Actually, here's a scan of the relevant section: http://www.alexox.com/sangha/bareattention.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike

Interesting excerpt, thanks.

Do you recommend this book for someone interested in reading in depth about the 4 foundations?
I'd recommend it, yes.

Spiny
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Mental Noting

Post by DarwidHalim »

meindzai wrote:I have always had trouble with mental noting techniques in Vipassana, so I've generally not used them. I've tried working from the writings of Mahasi Sayadaw but I've found them to be too much for me, as in, too many labels. I always found that I spent more time obsessing about labels, worrying about whether something should be labeled or not, making sure I chose the right one, figuring out how to categorize things, etc.

I think labels should bring attention to sensations and mind objects but I don't think that amount of precision is useful for me. Any recommendations? Or even just tell me what list you use. I'd like to divide it more or less into the four foundations of mindfulness or something similar. What labels do you use for the body, (or sensations), feelings, thoughts, mind objects?

-M
Your problem is exactly what happen to me when I first meditate. Instead of helping, those labeling or counting or noticing the breathing becomes obstacles. There is nothing wrong with the idea actually. It is only our mental disposition, which doesn't suit that technique.

I finally study Dzocghen and Mahamudra, which finally release me from this counting technique. It directly see mind nakedly, without any modification.

Look for this book. "The flight of Garuda" or any other Dzocghen or Mahamudra book. It will help you.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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