Levels of accomplishment?

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Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:50 pm

In Mahayana there are bhumis, or levels of attainment. In Theravada is there any such system?

Thanks,
Drolma
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:58 pm

Greetings Drolma,

The Noble Ones are categorised as follows...

Arahant - final destruction of ignorance, no more becoming
Non-Returner - a trace of craving results in becoming, but never again to the human realm
Once-Returner - born once more, before attaining arahantship
Stream-Entrant - maximum of 7 lifetimes to go but the destination is assured

Somewhere, venerable Dhammanando has an excellent table that shows what fetters are eradicated at each stage. Hopefully he sees this thread and can provide you a link to it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:26 pm

Thank you Retro :)

I couldn't help but notice that full buddhahood was missing from the list...

How is it different from an Arahant? Is the difference that a Buddha will teach?

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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Element » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:36 pm

There are many distinctions & synonym in Theravada regarding these two words.

However, generally Buddha is self-enlightened with no teacher whilst an arahant is help-enlightened because they are guided by the Buddha's teaching.
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:39 pm

Greetings Drolma,

In the fourfold scheme of the Noble Sangha (eightfold if you wish to distinguish between bhikkhus and bhikkunis)... the Buddha is classified alongside the arahants. He is often referred to as "The Arahant". What is true of the arahant is true of the Buddha... it just happens also to be that the Buddha both created a dispensation, and had developed his faculties far beyond the minimal level required for the cessation of suffering.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:45 am

sotapanna eradicates:
self-identification views (sakkaya-ditthi)
uncertainty (vicikiccha)
grasping at precepts and practices (silabbata-paramasa)

sakadagami eradicates those three and significantly weakens:
sensual passion (kama-raga)
resistance (vyapada)

anagami eradicates those five

arahant eradicates those five plus eradicates:
passion for form (rupa-raga)
passion for formless phenomena (arupa-raga)
conceit (mana)
restlessness (uddhacca)
unawareness (avijja)

Those are the ten fetters (samyojana) which bind one to the cycle of birth and death.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby thecap » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:12 am

Hi Peter

Thank you for the list.

resistance (vyapada) ... google says vyapada is ill-will/hatred.

But what about having resistance like Gandhi against someone who has ill-will/hatred?

"Vive la Résistance!" ;)
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:47 am

What about it?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:51 am

Greetings,

It seems as if vyapada is more commonly associated with ill-will per se.

Vyāpāda

Vyāpāda [fr. vyāpajjati. See also byāpāda] making bad, doing harm: desire to injure, malevolence, ill -- will D i.71, 246; iii.70 sq., 226, 234; S i.99; ii.151; iv.343; A i.194, 280; ii.14, 210; iii.92, 231, 245; iv.437; Vbh 86, 363 sq., 391; Pug 17 sq.; Dhs 1137; Vism 7; DA i.211; VbhA 74, 118, 369. ˚anusaya M i.433. ˚dosa M iii.3. ˚dhātu M iii.62. ˚nīvaraṇa M ii.203. See under each affix. -- Cp. avyāpāda.


Source: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... li.1427689

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:22 am

Hi Retro,

retrofuturist wrote:Somewhere, venerable Dhammanando has an excellent table that shows what fetters are eradicated at each stage. Hopefully he sees this thread and can provide you a link to it.


I don't have a link to the E-sangha thread where I posted it, so I'll upload it here. It presents the elimination of defilements according to the Abhidhamma.

Eradication.jpg
Eradication.jpg (127.21 KiB) Viewed 1203 times


Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:36 am

Greetings venerable Dhammanando,

Do you know where the explanation for the eradication of "envy" and "avarice" as a component of stream-entry originates?

I expected to see Doubt and Wrong View in the list, but am more familiar with Silabbatupadana (attachment to rites and rituals) appearing as the third feature of stream-entry.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:16 am

Hi Retro,

retrofuturist wrote:Do you know where the explanation for the eradication of "envy" and "avarice" as a component of stream-entry originates?


The extended list of fetters is from the Dhammasaṅgaṇī and Cullaniddesa, and the account of when each is eliminated is from the commentaries to the same (Atthasālinī 376-7, = Expositor II. 483; Saddhammappajjotikā 140). It's also given in the commentary to the Vatthūpama Sutta (MN. 7), which has an even longer list of kilesa (perhaps the longest of all) and when each is eliminated.

I expected to see Doubt and Wrong View in the list, but am more familiar with Silabbatupadana (attachment to rites and rituals) appearing as the third feature of stream-entry.


"Misapprehension of precepts and vows" (as I prefer to translate it) is included in the fetter of wrong view.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby gavesako » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:23 am

Drolma wrote:Thank you Retro :)

I couldn't help but notice that full buddhahood was missing from the list...

How is it different from an Arahant? Is the difference that a Buddha will teach?


For a good explanation, see
Arahants, Buddhas, and Bodhisattvas by Bhikkhu Bodhi

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha335.htm
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:28 am

Thank you venerable Dhammanando.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:51 pm

Thank you :namaste:
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:30 pm

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Retro,

retrofuturist wrote:Somewhere, venerable Dhammanando has an excellent table that shows what fetters are eradicated at each stage. Hopefully he sees this thread and can provide you a link to it.


I don't have a link to the E-sangha thread where I posted it, so I'll upload it here. It presents the elimination of defilements according to the Abhidhamma.



Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu


I expected the number to increase through the various levels but I see according to the list a Stream enterer has more than the others (except an Arahant) and an arahant hasn't eradicated them all. do you know why this is? I though as you progressed through the levels more were eradicated until you were enlightened and none remained, except for the lower enlightened beings.
don't know where I saw a list of the various levels but it did show an increase.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Dhammanando » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:17 pm

Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:I expected the number to increase through the various levels


Oh? What grounds did you have for expecting that?

but I see according to the list a Stream enterer has more than the others (except an Arahant) and an arahant hasn't eradicated them all.


The arahant has eradicated them all. Fetters eradicated by the attainment of the lower ariyan paths, starting with the path of stream-entry, stay eradicated. They don't come back and have to be eradicated a second time.

I though as you progressed through the levels more were eradicated until you were enlightened and none remained,


That's right.

except for the lower enlightened beings.


Whom do you mean?

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:08 am

Hi Dhammanando

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:I expected the number to increase through the various levels


Oh? What grounds did you have for expecting that?


well the further along the path one is the fewer there should be but by the list you attached Stream enterer has removed 4 a once returner has removed none, a none returner has remover 3 and an arahant has removed 8 out of 14

Dhammanando wrote:
but I see according to the list a Stream enterer has more than the others (except an Arahant) and an arahant hasn't eradicated them all.


The arahant has eradicated them all. Fetters eradicated by the attainment of the lower ariyan paths, starting with the path of stream-entry, stay eradicated. They don't come back and have to be eradicated a second time.

they why does the list say a Stream enterer has removed 4 a once returner has removed none, a none returner has remover 3 and an arahant has removed 8 out of 14?

Dhammanando wrote:
I though as you progressed through the levels more were eradicated until you were enlightened and none remained,


That's right.


Does the list not mark those previously marked as removed?

Dhammanando wrote:
except for the lower enlightened beings.


Whom do you mean?

I don't remember where the list I am thinking of and mentioned is, on the net possibly A2I or somewhere else or in a book I have or had?
but Stream enterer, once returner, none returner, arahant, PaccetaBuddha, Sambuddha and if I remember in the list there may of been a couple of others mentioned possibly Boddhisatta (but only in the life where they become enlightened) but not sure on that specific one
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Dhammanando » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:57 am

Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:Dhammanando: Oh? What grounds did you have for expecting that?


Manapa: well the further along the path one is the fewer there should be but by the list you attached Stream enterer has removed 4 a once returner has removed none, a none returner has remover 3 and an arahant has removed 8 out of 14


Well, there are fewer fetters left, the further along the path one is. But there's no reason why the number eliminated at each stage should have to conform to some a priori mathematical metaphysic. The Buddhist universe isn't an arithmetically ordered Pythagorean one, nor a geometrically ordered Spinozoan one. It has its laws/regularities (dhammatā), but also its messinesses.

they why does the list say a Stream enterer has removed 4 a once returner has removed none, a none returner has remover 3 and an arahant has removed 8 out of 14?


It doesn't. There are fifteen fetters in all. 4 + 3 + 8 = 15. So the stream-enterer eliminates 4 fetters. When he becomes a once-returner he weakens 2 fetters, but doesn't eliminate any. When the once-returner becomes a non-returner he eliminates 3 more, making 7 in all. When the non-returner becomes an arahant he eliminates 8 more, making 15 in all.

Does the list not mark those previously marked as removed?


The viewer of the chart is simply expected to assume this, since eliminated fetters don't come back. The chart's aim is merely to show at which stage of the path each fetter is eliminated. From your post I sense there is some confusion about the different types of ariyans. You seem to be taking stream-entry, once-returning and non-returning as if they were final states, when in fact they are stages along the way.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:07 pm

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,

The viewer of the chart is simply expected to assume this, since eliminated fetters don't come back. The chart's aim is merely to show at which stage of the path each fetter is eliminated. From your post I sense there is some confusion about the different types of ariyans. You seem to be taking stream-entry, once-returning and non-returning as if they were final states, when in fact they are stages along the way.


I'm not taking them as final states, more like checkpoints in a race! you still have to carry on with the race but you have an idea of how to improve! to get to the final post/
well I try not to assume to much as I was once told when you assume you make an ass out of you and me. as the list wasn't clear on this point, Personally I found it confused, and confusing, thanks for clearing that up and correcting my maths not one of my strong points.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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