What language did the Buddha speak?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Sekha
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by Sekha »

Modern scholars suggest that Pali was probably never spoken by the Buddha himself.In the centuries after the Buddha's death, as Buddhism spread across India into regions that spoke different dialects, Buddhist monks increasingly depended on a common tongue for their discussions of Dhamma and their recitations of memorized texts. It was out of this necessity that the language we now know as Pali emerged.
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ajbombadill
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by ajbombadill »

http://www.indology.net/article36.html

here is an interesting discourse on the origin of the Pali language...
Individual
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by Individual »

The Buddha didn't speak. Whatever people heard, it was always their own language which they thought they heard him speak. :)
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Individual wrote:The Buddha didn't speak. Whatever people heard, it was always their own language which they thought they heard him speak. :)
You may want to take that one to the "Discovering Mahasamghika" forum!
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
alan
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by alan »

Thank you Kare, You are a real treasure. Always well explained, always well researched. Bravo!
Luke
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by Luke »

Hi Kare, I enjoyed your analyses above.
Kare wrote: If I speak with a Swede or a Dane, I understand most of his conversation without any problem. I might ask him to repeat a word or to clarify his meaning now or then. I would speak in my normal Norwegian, but maybe I would modify a word a little now or then in order to get my meaning across. And if let's say a Swede told me a good story, I might retell it to a Norwegian friend. I would naturally concentrate on telling the contents in my own dialect, not trying to reproduce the grammatical forms of Swedish. I would not really be conscious of having "translated" anything.
Is it also the case that the non-Finnish Scandanavian languages share the most vocubulary in the area of intellectual words and diverge the most in the area of practical words?

I find this to be the case with the dialects of English and Spanish. British and American English generally use completely different words for practical things like some foods, clothing, houses, the parts of a car, etc. But if I read an academic paper, I generally can't tell if the author was British or American unless he uses a word like "color" which will indicate the dialect of the author by its spelling.

If this is generally true, then Buddha's Magadhi would probably be almost exactly the same as Pali in the area of intellectual stuff (mind, consciousness, reality, etc.), which is the majority of what Buddha talked about.

I think dialects are more likely to diverge in names for household items, greetings, and slang.

"Yo, wassup K-dawg?" "Good afternoon, Kare." "Hello, Kare." "G'day, Kare."

"I'm watching the TV." "I'm watching the telly." "I'm watching the boob-tube."

So we'll probably never know how the Buddha may have said the equivalent of "Waddup, bhikku-dawg?" when he was relaxing, but we probably have a faithful representation of his religious language.
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Assaji
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by Assaji »

Hi Kare,
Kare wrote:Yes, I seem to remember that there is a sutta which gives just that explanation for the synonyms. I just can't remember which sutta that might have been. Anyone here who knows?
The Araṇa-vibhanga Sutta says:

M 139.12

'You should not cling to a regional language; you should not reject common usage.' So it is said. In what connection is this said?

How, monks, is there clinging to a regional language and rejection of common usage?

Here, monks, in different regions, they call a "bowl" paati, patta, vittha, seraava, dhaaropa, po.na or pisiila. So whatever they call it in such and such a region, they speak accordingly, firmly adhering (to the words) and insisting, 'Only this is right; anything else is wrong.'

This is how, monks, there is clinging to a regional language and rejection of common usage.

And how, monks, is there no clinging to a regional language and no rejection of common usage?

Here, monks, in different regions, they call a "bowl" paati, patta, vittha, seraava, dhaaropa, po.na or pisiila. So whatever they call it in such and such a region, without adhering (to the words), one speaks accordingly.

This is how, monks, there is no clinging to a regional language and no rejection of common usage.

So it is with reference to this that it is said, 'You should not cling to a regional language; you should not reject common usage.'



IMO, this confirms that Buddha used the lingua franca of the area, namely Magadhi, with minor regional peculiarities.

Dmytro
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Hanzze
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
johnnylondon
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by johnnylondon »

Kare wrote:
smokey wrote:Some sources say Sanskrit and some Magadhi. Now I wonder is there any evidence? I apologize if the question has been asked previously on this forum.
He did not speak Sanskrit.
Of course he spoke Sanskrit. A customarily evaluation of his life and invaluable teachings will provide evidence to support that he would of spoke sanskrit, even if it was not his first language.

Firstly, its is beleived from early inscriptions and some archeological evidence that he was born in Lumbini, Nepal; was of the Shakya clan, which were Kshatriya castes, or warrior kings. Historically, it was believed from accounts and records from hindu sources that Gutama's lineage was from the warrior monks like Kripacharya, who later became kings themselves. Again, historical evidence, from literary sources in Haridrar and Rishikesh suggest, despite not proto-typical brahmins, these kings spoke Sanskrit, and had much intrinsic and intricate depths of vedic knowledge and rituals. Given the similarities in time-line and geographical locations, as compared to pali and sri lanka, this argument is far more plausible.

Secondly, whilst on the quest for an answer to the reason for suffering, he studied many esoteric vedic doctrines, sutras and paradigms, which at the time were orally recited in sanskrit only. many of his early followers like Kaundinya were brahmins, who were bewitched with the buddhas words of wisdom, and again they would of mastered Sanskrit.

Well this is my 2cents -

Buddah be praised.
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Assaji
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by Assaji »

Hi Johnnylondon,

Sanskrit as a language didn't exist in the Buddha's time:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3215" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best wishes, Dmytro
johnnylondon
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by johnnylondon »

Evidence please?

Vedic sanskrit, as used by the Rig Veda was written word perfect over the course of Kaal (time). During the time of the Buddha, oral recitation of of doctrines and paradigms where the usual practise.

I can appreciate how one can read wikipedia and feel an expert, however in order to reject a theory or hypothesis, one must actually have an awareness (mindfully!) of what that hypothesis was.

The vedas, were not always categorised into 4 distinct components, this was not done until the time of Veda Vyas, which has been argued by Scholars to be 3rd millenia BCE. Again the vedic language or pre-classical sanskrit was later evolved to classical sanskrit later used in the puranas. This i can comprehend is what is causing you confusion.

I can appreciate that it is very easy to use the little sources out there, such as wiki as a framework to direct intellectual curiosities, however, one should also understand that the esoteric scholars at Haridar and Varansi, whom have studied the language in-depth will refute from arguing in such affairs, as to do so in an expression of ego and trapped in a web of delusion. I have read your other thread and actually find it amusing - like a scientist who practises evidence based medicine, one must be mindfully aware of where such sources have arisen, and any bias incorporated. Just because a language has evolved over time can not mean to deny the origin of the language, where the core structure has remained intact.

One must also appreciate that despite there being a grammatical difference between the early Rig vedic sanskrit, and the later upanishads - you should also be aware of even older recited sanskrit tantric verses, that have over time only been passed orally from guru to student. These verses, can not and will not be littered over wikipedia. The language and grammatical content of these are remarkably identical to the rig-vedic language you keep harping on about - i.e. sanskrit.

You observation is that since the language used in the Rig vedic sanskirt, is different grammatically to the Sanskrit used in later texts is true. However, to claim that 'Sanskrit' did not exist per se during the time of the Buddha is incorrect, and evidence points to the contrary. A proponent to my theory would be the chandi, in the markenda purana. The Rig Vedic hymn, the Ratri Suktam is a composite and integral part in the purana, however a customarily evaluation of the core sanskriti grammar used between the Vedic and puranic language supports that between this and the later added dyanams, that there is a subtle differences in the construct of the sentences. However both undeniably share a common structure, pronunciation and thus origin.

You claim the language of the Vedas were not Sanskrit - evidence please? Give me written examples and exact verses that support your theory. Please show me the difference in vocabulary and grammar between the vyas sanskriti and that of the rig vedas.

I mean do you even understand pali and Sanskrit? Or are you just echoing the opinions of others.

What i find comical is that you fail to see the most obvious: praciti and sanskriti. This again has significant esoteric levels of understanding consciousness.

I fail to find your subjective interpretations of a questionable series of wikipedia articles as actual evidence convincing - more like propaganda and dogma.

Vedic Sanskrit corpus - since you like to draw your opinions from wiki - you might want to to read this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Om mane padme hum
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mikenz66
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by mikenz66 »

johnnylondon wrote: Vedic sanskrit, as used by the Rig Veda was written word perfect over the course of Kaal (time). During the time of the Buddha, oral recitation of of doctrines and paradigms where the usual practise.
I'm no expert so I can't comment on the technicalities, but surely the argument here is largely one of definitions. Whether or not one calls the language of the Vedas "Sanskrit", the issue is surely whether the Buddha understood that language. Since many Suttas appear to be commentary on Vedic ideas, (e.g. http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7464) it seems likely that he was.

Similarly with "Pali". It seems obvious (again, I'm no expert!) that the Buddha didn't speak the later dialect developed by compilers of the Commentaries, since there is new(er) vocabulary there. Whether the dialect he spoke in his time was similar to the dialect of the Suttas is the only interesting question.

:anjali:
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Alex123
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,

It is also possible that the Buddha spoke various dialects depending on whom he talked to and in what state. It is not impossible that the Buddha knew early dialect that we call Sanskrit and spoke it to the Brahmins and Kings, while speaking Pali to those who spoke Pali. From what I've heard, the sacred Vedic stuff was taught in (early) Sanskrit only. So considering Buddha's familiarity with what Brahmins believed, it is possible that he, being an educated prince, knew the language. It may be possible that he knew as much as 7 dialects or more (because he mentioned 7 different words for bowl in MN139).
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by Kare »

It seems that the concept of mutually intelligible dialects and language variants is difficult to grasp. Please read again my posting about the mutually intelligible dialects and languages of Scandinavia. Then you will see that whatever dialect the Buddha himself spoke, he would probably have understood both "literary sanskrit/vedic" and other spoken dialects. And whatever dialect he spoke, he will probably have been understood by most of his listeners. The dialects of Northern India at the time of the Buddha were not very different, and they must have been mutually intelligible. Therefore, the question of his dialect is not a very important one. We may call it Pali, a variant of Pali, Ardha-Magadhi, early Prakrit, or whatever. Probability indicates that his language was not exactly what we know as "grammatical correct" Pali, but fairly close to it. We will know with full certainty the day we find his words written with his own hand. Until then we have to learn to live with some uncertainty. :lol:
Mettāya,
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Assaji
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Re: What language did the Buddha speak?

Post by Assaji »

Hi Johnnylondon,
johnnylondon wrote:Evidence please?
Vedic language and Sanskrit have very different dialectal base.

"The dialect at the basis of Rgvedic language lay to the north-west, while the classical language was formed in Madhyadesa."

Thomas Burrow, The Sanskrit Language, page 84

Please see his book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=cWDhKTj1SBYC&pg=PA84" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See also:

Yelizarenkova T. Ya. Vediyskiy i sanskrit. K probleme variatsii
lingvisticheskogo tipa. ( Vedic and Sanskrit. To the problem of variations of
the linguistic type).
What i find comical is that you fail to see the most obvious: praciti and sanskriti. This again has significant esoteric levels of understanding consciousness.

I fail to find your subjective interpretations of a questionable series of wikipedia articles as actual evidence convincing - more like propaganda and dogma.
I am not going to continue the discussion with such an attitude of yours.
Unfrotunately it is all too common with Brahmanic Indian scholars.

Best wishes, Dmytro
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