Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

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Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby Sekha » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:09 am

The idea of this project:
The purpose of this website is firstly to provide translations of the suttas where greater effort is made to prevent the arising of misunderstandings due to translation distortion by increasing the level of transparency of the translation process, and taking the reader down to the meaning of the original Pali words; secondly, this website intends to enable those who have little time with them to get a fair knowledge of all important Pali terms and expressions which are fundamental for the proper understanding of Dhamma, simply by reading the suttas and their proposed commentaries. In order to make such an aim easily attainable, the idea is to focus fully on semantics while completely leaving aside grammatical matters, which are much more difficult to get acquainted with and of much lower spiritual interest.


I can use colors to link english words to Pali words, which can almost enable the reader to understand the Pali text while reading it, without having complicated knowledge about Pali grammar.

What do you think: is it worth doing it?

please see the example:

http://www.suttapitaka.net/an05-249.html
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby Ytrog » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:27 am

Quite nice :)

Maybe it is useful to make the highlighted words clickable. You can then show all the meanings of a word in a small popup-box or something like that.

Just out of curiosity: are you making each page (with all the html) individually or are you planning on using a CMS? :ugeek:
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.


mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments


If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:02 am

I like this a lot.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby gavesako » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:38 am

Sister Uppalavanna's renderings are sometimes a bit funny:

compagnons --> should read "companions"
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby Majjhima Patipada » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:29 pm

Excellent! I've been looking for something just like this to help with my understanding of Pāḷi. Thank you very much! :bow:

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby ancientbuddhism » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:54 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:The idea of this project:
...

I can use colors to link english words to Pali words, which can almost enable the reader to understand the Pali text while reading it, without having complicated knowledge about Pali grammar.

What do you think: is it worth doing it?

please see the example:

http://www.suttapitaka.net/an05-249.html


A helpful service for many, although a huge task depending on how far you intend to go with it.

One idea: is it possible to link the pāḷi with a mouse-over and click option to search an entire document? The DPR provides this, although without translation parallels, where you can click on most pāḷi words and compounds for a very basic interactive with a breakdown and dictionary features.

I second Gavasako on Sister Uppalavanna's translations. Perhaps provide some disclaimer that these have not been thoroughly edited.
Anuvicca papañca nāmarūpaṃ
ajjhattaṃ bahiddhā ca rogamūlaṃ,
sabbarogamūlabandhanā pamutto
anuvidito tādi pavuccate tathattā
.

“Having known the naming of objects,
With its proliferation, its root in illness – within and without;
One is released from bondage to the root of all illness.
And thus is called the Knowing One – the Such.

– Sn. 3.6 (Sabhiyasuttaṃ)

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:34 pm

Excellent idea! Looking forward to it Dukkhanirodha. If each one of us does his or her bit, the sasana would be richer for it. Sadhu!

:anjali:

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby Sekha » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:11 am

Ytrog wrote:Quite nice :)

Maybe it is useful to make the highlighted words clickable. You can then show all the meanings of a word in a small popup-box or something like that.

Just out of curiosity: are you making each page (with all the html) individually or are you planning on using a CMS? :ugeek:


No CMS, I work on notepad++ only, I like to control what I do
I started from scratch and wrote almost every single line of html code see:
http://www.tipitaka.fr/

There will be some bubble tooltip feature to make the reading easier
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby Sekha » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:15 am

gavesako wrote:Sister Uppalavanna's renderings are sometimes a bit funny:

compagnons --> should read "companions"


This is my mistake only. Thanks for the correction. The bias here comes from the spelling of that word in my mother tongue, which is not english, and the fact that my spelling check did not find out about it is that it actually is also an English word, though used very seldom.

Actually, I re-translate the sutta, see Sister Upalavanna's:

Bhikkhus, these five are the dangers of a cemetery. What five?

It is impure, has evil smells, it is with fear, it is the dwelling of troublesome non-humans, it is the wailing place for many. Bhikkhus, these five are the dangers of a cemetery.

Bhikkhus, in the same manner these are the five dangers of a person comparable to a cemetery. What five?

Here, bhikkhus, a certain person is endowed with impure bodily, verbal and mental activity. This I say, is his impurity. Bhikkhus, just as that cemetery is impure, so also is this person.

Ill fame spreads of that person who has impure bodily, verbal and mental activity. This I say, is his evil smell. As the cemetery smells, so too this person.

The well behaved bhikkhus avoid this one endowed with impure bodily, verbal and mental activities from a distance, to that I say he is with fear. As the cemetery is with fear, so also this person.

This person with impure bodily, verbal and mental activity associates a person, of the same category. This I say, is the troublesome living together. As the cemetery is dwelling of troublesome non-humans, so also this person's dwelling.

The well behaved bhikkhus, seeing this person with impure bodily, verbal and mental activities turn away from him -thinking O! it is unpleasant to live with such a person. That I say, is the wailing. Bhikkhus, just as the cemetery is the wailing place of many, so also is this person. Bhikkhus, these five are the dangers of a person comparable to a cemetery.
Last edited by Sekha on Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby Sekha » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:19 am

Majjhima Patipada wrote:Excellent! I've been looking for something just like this to help with my understanding of Pāḷi. Thank you very much! :bow:


Excellent!!

expect some "big" release in a few weeks (at least 15 suttas, probably 20 or so)
I am working on the glossary, but that takes time because I refer directly to the Buddha's definition of words from the suttas, which takes time to set up since I have to translate all those suttas

check out also the index page still in hybrid french-english, but with explanations about the ins and outs:

http://www.suttapitaka.net/
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby Sekha » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:21 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:
A helpful service for many, although a huge task depending on how far you intend to go with it.

One idea: is it possible to link the pāḷi with a mouse-over and click option to search an entire document? The DPR provides this, although without translation parallels, where you can click on most pāḷi words and compounds for a very basic interactive with a breakdown and dictionary features.

I second Gavasako on Sister Uppalavanna's translations. Perhaps provide some disclaimer that these have not been thoroughly edited.


It is actually intended for those who don't have the time to get into DPR.
What you suggest is too complex for me.
There will be only a glossary, not a whole dictionary.
My contribution is that it will be more user-friendly.

See the two purposes I have in this project:
http://www.suttapitaka.net/
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby Ytrog » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:52 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
Ytrog wrote:Quite nice :)

Maybe it is useful to make the highlighted words clickable. You can then show all the meanings of a word in a small popup-box or something like that.

Just out of curiosity: are you making each page (with all the html) individually or are you planning on using a CMS? :ugeek:


No CMS, I work on notepad++ only, I like to control what I do
I started from scratch and wrote almost every single line of html code see:
http://www.tipitaka.fr/

There will be some bubble tooltip feature to make the reading easier


There are CMS'es that use custom build templates, so you can completely control everything yet have an easy way to add pages in a navigation structure. Umbraco is an example of such a CMS.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.


mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments


If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby morning mist » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:13 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:
One idea: is it possible to link the pāḷi with a mouse-over and click option to search an entire document? The DPR provides this, although without translation parallels, where you can click on most pāḷi words and compounds for a very basic interactive with a breakdown and dictionary features.


Dukkhanirodha wrote:It is actually intended for those who don't have the time to get into DPR.
What you suggest is too complex for me.


This is exactly what hope to see on various suttas website for a long time but didn't see . Incorporating a DPR side by side with the English translation just like Dukkhanirodha had it laid out will be very helpful for readers because when they are confused about a certain translation, they can click on the Pali words with definition pop-ups ( or some where ) and see the meaning of the word more thoroughly. It can contribute to a more thorough understanding of the discourse . That way they don't have to look it up .

I agree with Dukkhanirodha that it can be very complex. It takes a long time just to post the English version alone, especially if you are translating before posting. Maybe another person can help to incorporate the DPR into the pali in the left ( or whatever way possible).

I think the introduction is great, Dukkhanirodha.

Dukkhanirodha wrote: It is actually intended for those who don't have the time to get into DPR.


I think it will be a very useful feature for the readers to have the DPR incorporated on the Pali side. I will be working on one also, but there is no Pali or DPR though. I wonder if anyone who is familiar would want to collaborate on the project and add the DPR. Aside from listing the suttas by number according to the original order, I plan to list it as according to topics as well. That way when people wanted to learn what the Buddha taught about a certain subject, it is all laid out in one place. It is easier to see the complete picture . Right now let's say you are trying to learn about kamma, the suttas on kamma will be scattered all over the various Nikayas like pieces of puzzles that are scattered out. You still have to locate and put it together to see the full picture. A mistake I often see people make is that he/she will read one or two sutta on the subject ( kamma, sila, etc..) and come to a conclusion when else where there are other suttas revealing other aspects about it.

Dukkhanirodha, it is great that you are making a French version available. Or is it in English too but I don't see it.


With metta,
with metta,

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby Ytrog » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:02 pm

Eh, what is DPR exactly?

If you want something to popup when you click or hover on a word be sure to check out jquery:
http://jquery.com
http://jqueryui.com (for nice controls)
http://fancybox.net/ (a nice popup library I've worked with before at work)
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.


mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments


If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby MidGe » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:48 am

Great idea.

There is another experimental tool available. It has a very interesting way of relating the Pali to the English, including a modicum of grammar, in a visual way.

You can find it here: http://theravada.org/translate/

Metta

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby Sekha » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:05 am

morning mist wrote:
This is exactly what hope to see on various suttas website for a long time but didn't see . Incorporating a DPR side by side with the English translation just like Dukkhanirodha had it laid out will be very helpful for readers because when they are confused about a certain translation, they can click on the Pali words with definition pop-ups ( or some where ) and see the meaning of the word more thoroughly. It can contribute to a more thorough understanding of the discourse . That way they don't have to look it up .

I agree with Dukkhanirodha that it can be very complex. It takes a long time just to post the English version alone, especially if you are translating before posting. Maybe another person can help to incorporate the DPR into the pali in the left ( or whatever way possible).


That would b a good idea. But I will not be able to do that alone on all the suttas. If people actually help, it is possible. Otherwise, i might do this only for a few suttas.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby gavesako » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:50 pm

Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby morning mist » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:00 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
morning mist wrote:
This is exactly what hope to see on various suttas website for a long time but didn't see . Incorporating a DPR side by side with the English translation just like Dukkhanirodha had it laid out will be very helpful for readers because when they are confused about a certain translation, they can click on the Pali words with definition pop-ups ( or some where ) and see the meaning of the word more thoroughly. It can contribute to a more thorough understanding of the discourse . That way they don't have to look it up .

I agree with Dukkhanirodha that it can be very complex. It takes a long time just to post the English version alone, especially if you are translating before posting. Maybe another person can help to incorporate the DPR into the pali in the left ( or whatever way possible).


That would b a good idea. But I will not be able to do that alone on all the suttas. If people actually help, it is possible. Otherwise, i might do this only for a few suttas.



I have been setting up the table of content for the Nikayas on the website and posting a few suttas but is nowhere close to finish either. Maybe we can cooperate on posting the suttas so it will be faster. Why don't we post the english version on the website I am working on and yours will be in French so it will be available in different two language. The google translater is okay but it is a little bit funny without some touch up . So when readers press translate on the google reader it is not that accurate for certain words.

Dukkhanirodha, have you used the amazon kindle reader or iBook reader ? When you click on a certain words , the dictionary definition pops up. It would be nice if the same thing would show up for the Pali that we put next to the English translation. If you are familiar maybe you can incorporate that for the Pali version and I'll post the suttas. Otherwise, maybe someone can incorporate the Pali dictionary definition pop up later after we post the suttas with the Pali side by side.

Another feature that would be nice to provide is to embed an audio version of the suttas somewhere on the same page so people can listen if they prefer that .

With metta,
Last edited by morning mist on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
with metta,

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby morning mist » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:05 pm

Ytrog wrote:Eh, what is DPR exactly?


It is like a digital pali dictionary .



gavesako wrote:Another similar project:

http://4nobletruths.info/s/s56/s56.11.html
[/quote]


Ajahn Gavesako,I haven't come across that website before. I wonder if it is complete with the full Sutta Pitaka or is it under construction. It would be even better if they use a template.
with metta,

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Re: Under construction - learn Pali reading the suttas

Postby Sekha » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:27 am

erratum: sorry for the inconveniences it may cause to any of you

for a number of reasons, one being that I am rarely available on the internet, I will have to work on my own, whatever amount of time it takes me.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59


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