the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Platypus
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Platypus »

Refugee wrote::namaste: More than two thousand years have gone by and there is still no consensus about (post-mortem) rebirth. Will there be consensus about this in our relatively short lifespan? I don't think so! Then, are we wasting our time here? Maybe not; because "the great rebirth debate" may actually be a positive thing, in that, it could point to the futility of seeking answers about rebirth based on intellectual arguments.

Some claim the Buddha taught about rebirth, while others have a different slant on this. Then, again, some claim they acquired experiential knowledge that rebirth actually happens. But, others reject this. There's so much reference to the different suttas and commentaries on both sides, but still no consensus. There's also no guarantee that everything in the suttas is exactly how the Buddha explained it. Some people simply choose to be angostic about it. And, being agnostic about rebirth may not be a problem because the driving force of the Dhamma is simply to know dukkha, its causes, its cessation, and the Way (8FP) to its cessation. Perhaps, knowledge about whether or not there is (post-mortem) rebirth is not essential to the practice of the Buddha-Dhamma. I am not too sure about this, but if it is the case, then beginners who field questions about (post-mortem) rebirth should be advised accordingly. Then, at least, they will put aside this "distraction" and continue with the practice... leaving this debate to more "experienced" practitioners. :tongue:
I think this is important, and I don't think at least initially that a belief in rebirth is needed to practice the 8fp the Buddha taught it in the four solaces.

17. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now.
"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.
"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.
"The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found."
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Was the Buddha telling untruth or misleading us when he talked about Hell in many suttas such as MN129/130?
Buddha in MN130 wrote: Then the warders of hell give him the fivefold binding. That is two hot iron spikes are sent through his two palms, and two other hot spikes are sent through his two feet and the fifth hot iron spike is sent through his chest. On account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell conduct him and hammer himOn account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell take him upside down and cut him with a knifeOn account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell yoke him to a cart and make him go to and fro on a ground that is flaming and ablaze On account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell make him ascend and descend a rock of burning ambers On account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell throw him upside down into a boiling, blazingpot of molten. Therehe is cooked in the molten scum, and he on his own accord dives in comes up and goes across in the molten pot. On account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell throw him to the Great Hell.

The square Great Hell has four gates and is divided in two,

Enclosed by iron walls, is closed with an iron lid.

The floor spreads for seven hundred miles,

And it stands there every day.

A fire springs from the eastern wall of the Great Hell to scorch the western wall. A fire springs from the western wall to scorch the eastern wallA fire springs from the northern wall to scorch the southern wall. A fire springs from the southern wall to scorch the northern wall. A fire springs from the bottom to scorch the top and a fire springs from the top to scorch the bottom. There he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an end.

Bhikkhus, after the lapse of a very long time, it happens that the eastern door of the Great Hell opens. Then he runs with great speed, in doing so he burns his outer skin, inner skin, flesh, nerves, andeven the bones smoke, even if he pulls himself out, it happens. When he had, had enough of it the door closesThere he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an end.

Bhikkhus, after the lapse of a very long time, it happens that the western door of the Great Hell opens. Then he runs with great speed, in doing so he burns his outer skin, inner skin, flesh, nerves, andeven the bones smoke, even if he pulls himself out, it happens. When he had, had enough of it the door closesThere he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an end.

Bhikkhus, after the lapse of a very long time, it happens that the eastern door of the Great Hell opens. Then he runs with great speed, in doing so he burns his outer skin, inner skin, flesh, nerves, andeven the bones smoke, even if he pulls himself out, it happens. He escapes through that door.

Parallel and together with the Great Hell is the Hell of Excreta he falls into that. In it there are needle mouthed living things, that pierce the outer skin, ñhen the inner skin, after that the flesh, the nerves and even the bones and they eat the bone marrowThere he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an end.

Parallel and together with the Hell of Excretais the Hell where hot ashes rain, he falls into that. There he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an end.

Parallel and together with the Hell where hot ashes rain, is the Simbali forest, more than seven miles tall, it has thorns sixteen inches long, aflame and blazing, he climbes on them and goes to and fro on them. There he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an end.

Parallel and together with the Simbali forest, is a forest of swords. He enters that. The leaves that fall with the wind, cut his feet, hands, feet and hands, ears, nose, ears and nose. There he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an end.

Parallel and together with the forest of swords is a huge salt water riverHe falls into that. In it he is carried up stream and down stream. There he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an end.

Then the warders of hell pull him out with a hook and ask him. `Good man, what do you desire?' He says, `Sir, I'm hungry,' The warders of hell open his mouth with hot iron spikes and pour into his mouth burning, flaming iron balls. They burn his lips, mouth, throat, chest, the intestines, the lower intestines and they come out with the insides There he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die, until his demerit comes to an end.

Then the warders ask him. `Good man, what do you desire?' He says, `Sir, I'm thirsty,' The warders of hell open his mouth with hot iron spikes and pour into his mouth burning, flaming copper molten They burn his lips, mouth, throat, chest, the intestines, the lower intestines and they come out with the insidesThere he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die, until his demerit comes to an end.

Then the warders of Hell put him back to the Great Hell.

In the past to the king of the Under World it occurred thus. To those who do evil in the world, these various punishments are given. O! IfI gain humanity. O! If the Thus Gone One, perfect and rightfully enlightened is born in the world. O! I should associate that Blessed One. O! the Blessed One should teach me and I should know that Teaching.

``Bhikkhus, I say this not hearing from another recluse or brahmin, this is what I have myself known and seen and so I say it
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... uta-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are there any indication that Buddha borrowed this doctrine from someone else?
Does the Buddha say that he is only being metaphorical talking about momentary mind states?

Considering how precise the Buddha was making sure that He would not be misinterpreted, is there any clear statement that He was merely talking about momentary mind states?
Nikaya35
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Nikaya35 »

To claim that the Buddha never teach literal karma and rebirth based in the Nikayas is very dishonest . In many sutras of the 4 nikayas he talk about literal karma and rebirth many times . I don't think that he used both concepts to trick people to behave good . I don't think that the Buddha was a liar . He wasn't agnostic about the issue . I understand that in America and Europe in our modern times both concepts can seem to be speculations and superstitions . Maybe the Buddha was a superstitious dude . Maybe he was wrong and materialists are right . I choose to think that the Buddha was right and that simply his doctrine of rebirth and karma without agent or soul is very difficult to understand.
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ground
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by ground »

maitreya31 wrote:To claim that the Buddha never teach literal karma and rebirth based in the Nikayas is very dishonest . In many sutras of the 4 nikayas he talk about literal karma and rebirth many times . I don't think that he used both concepts to trick people to behave good . I don't think that the Buddha was a liar . He wasn't agnostic about the issue . I understand that in America and Europe in our modern times both concepts can seem to be speculations and superstitions . Maybe the Buddha was a superstitious dude . Maybe he was wrong and materialists are right . I choose to think that the Buddha was right and that simply his doctrine of rebirth and karma without agent or soul is very difficult to understand.
As to "literal":

Putting aside only some part of the Buddha's teachings as "non-literal" in meaning raises the following questions:
What is the basis for determining one part to be understood "literally" in meaning and another part not to be understood "literally" in meaning?
Investigating into this question will show that the basis is arbitrariness caused by liking and disliking and/or a complete unawareness of the "can of worms" a differentiation between "literal" and "non-literal" leads to.

So if argueing "pro literal" or "contra literal" you should define what "literal meaning" stands for in a certain case. Otherwise it is simply taken as a "given" like some metaphysical entity: The one who believes in it does not see any necessity to bother if it exists.
Investigating into linguistic practices one can easily find out that 1) the meaning of words changes depending on contexts and that 2) many words and expressions are applied with a metaphorical intent. To talk about a "literal meaning" of words [a "literal meaning" = "one", 'singular'] without further definition actually presumes a "meaning" autonomously inhering in a symbol when it is actually the one who contacts (sees, reads) this symbol who fabricates the meaning of it.


Kind regards
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

TMingyur wrote:Investigating into linguistic practices one can easily find out that 1) the meaning of words changes depending on contexts and that 2) many words and expressions are applied with a metaphorical intent.
I agree, in particular that the meaning of language is always specific to context. So it isn't enough to say that a particular Pali word can have several meanings, you need to look very carefully at the context too.

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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by bodom »

I came across an interesting sutta today that seems to strongly support to the 3 life model:
Bala-pandita Sutta: The Fool & the Wise Person

Dwelling at Savatthi. "When a fool is obstructed by ignorance and conjoined with craving, this body thus results. Now there is both this body and external name-&-form. Here, in dependence on this duality, there is contact at the six senses. Touched by these, or one or another of them, the fool is sensitive to pleasure & pain.

"When a wise person is obstructed by ignorance and conjoined with craving, this body thus results. Now there is both this body and external name-&-form. Here, in dependence on this duality, there is contact at the six senses. Touched by these, or one or another of them, the wise person is sensitive to pleasure & pain.

"So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between the wise person & the fool?"

"For us, lord, the teachings have the Blessed One as their root, their guide, & their arbitrator. It would be good if the Blessed One himself would explicate the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the monks will remember it."

"In that case, monks, listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "The ignorance with which the fool is obstructed, the craving with which he is conjoined, through which this body results: that ignorance has not been abandoned by the fool; that craving has not been destroyed. Why is that? The fool has not practiced the holy life for the right ending of stress. Therefore, at the break-up of the body, he is headed for a [new] body. Headed for a body, he is not entirely freed from birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. I tell you, he is not entirely freed from stress & suffering.

"The ignorance with which the wise person is obstructed, the craving with which he is conjoined, through which this body results: that ignorance has been abandoned by the wise person; that craving has been destroyed. Why is that? The wise person has practiced the holy life for the right ending of stress. Therefore, at the break-up of the body, he is not headed for a [new] body. Not headed for a body, he is entirely freed from birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is, I tell you, entirely freed from stress & suffering."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now, not that I care at all for argument or debate concerning rebirth, I just thought it was an interesting sutta to share.

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Ben
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ben »

bodom wrote:Now, not that I care at all for argument or debate concerning...
Not even a little one?

Thanks for sharing that Sutta, Bodom.
As for support for the 3-lifetime support, I guess it all depends on how one interprets the sutta. For me, its less clear than clear either way. It would be interesting to read the commentarial gloss on the Bala-pandita Sutta.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by bodom »

Ben wrote:
bodom wrote:Now, not that I care at all for argument or debate concerning...
Not even a little one?

Thanks for sharing that Sutta, Bodom.
As for support for the 3-lifetime support, I guess it all depends on how one interprets the sutta. For me, its less clear than clear either way. It would be interesting to read the commentarial gloss on the Bala-pandita Sutta.
kind regards

Ben
Hi Ben

Do you own Bodhi's Samyutta translation? All the commentarial notes are included for this sutta.

Bodhi say's something along the lines that "this sutta should establish validity for the 3 life model and show that it is not a strictly commentarial idea."

However one chooses to interpret this sutta is entirely up to them. I didn't post it to try change anyone's opinions this way or that. Just thought it was interesting.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Ben
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ben »

Hi Bodom
Yes, I do own Bodhi's translation of SN, but it is 100km away as I didn't bring it home with me.
I'll check it out when I go back Sunday evening. Its interesting that Ven Bodhi says that as I recall he says elsewhere that the 3-lifetime model (paticca-samupada) is an expository tool. I'm even more intrigued now!
I didn't post it to try change anyone's opinions this way or that. Just thought it was interesting.
It is, indeed!
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Alex123 wrote:Considering how precise the Buddha was making sure that He would not be misinterpreted, is there any clear statement that He was merely talking about momentary mind states?
And are there any suttas which comprehensively support the notion of "moment-to-moment rebirth"?

Spiny
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:Considering how precise the Buddha was making sure that He would not be misinterpreted, is there any clear statement that He was merely talking about momentary mind states?
Dhp 33. Just as a fletcher straightens an arrow shaft, even so the discerning man straightens his mind — so fickle and unsteady, so difficult to guard.

34. As a fish when pulled out of water and cast on land throbs and quivers, even so is this mind agitated. Hence should one abandon the realm of Mara.

35. Wonderful, indeed, it is to subdue the mind, so difficult to subdue, ever swift, and seizing whatever it desires. A tamed mind brings happiness.

36. Let the discerning man guard the mind, so difficult to detect and extremely subtle, seizing whatever it desires. A guarded mind brings happiness.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

Bala-pandita Sutta: The Fool & the Wise Person

The Blessed One said, "The ignorance with which the fool is obstructed, the craving with which he is conjoined, through which this body results: that ignorance has not been abandoned by the fool; that craving has not been destroyed. Why is that? The fool has not practiced the holy life for the right ending of stress. Therefore, at the break-up of the body, he is headed for a [new] body. Headed for a body, he is not entirely freed from birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. I tell you, he is not entirely freed from stress & suffering.
There's always a bracketed portion in Suttas such as this, which always leaves me wondering - is it a grammatically understood case, is it contextual with respect to idiom, is it some manner of translation bias? I think the sentence reads better without it.

In any event, I agree that the idea of punabhava is here set out very simply, except that 'body' must be broadly understood as it encapsulates even the subtle bodies of devas and other beings, which can have all manner of dimensions and qualities.

I will also add that, as far as I can tell, this does not show that paticcasamuppada is to be understood solely with reference to punabhava, only that punabhava was part of what the Buddha explained to others. A leaf not left on the tree - might be important.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Tilt,

Can you please explain what you are trying to say in http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p141427" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;? How do those poetic phrases in Dhammapada relate to lets say MN130 or to technical description of D.O. in SN12.2 or to birth in DN15?


"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"
"No, lord."
"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"
"No, lord."
"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."
...
"'From birth as a requisite condition come aging and death.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from birth as a requisite condition come aging and death. If there were no birth at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., of devas in the state of devas, of celestials in the state of celestials, of spirits in the state of spirits, of demons in the state of demons, of human beings in the human state, of quadrupeds in the state of quadrupeds, of birds in the state of birds, of snakes in the state of snakes, or of any being in its own state — in the utter absence of birth, from the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Was Buddha agnostic regarding post mortem fate?

6. Then the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and, after greeting him respectfully, sat down at one side. And he said to the Blessed One: "Here in Nadika, Lord, there have passed away the bhikkhu Salha and the bhikkhuni Nanda. Likewise there have passed away the layman Sudatta and the laywoman Sujata; likewise the layman Kakudha, Kalinga, Nikata, Katissabha, Tuttha, Santuttha, Bhadda, and Subhadda. What is their destiny, Lord? What is their future state?"

7. "The bhikkhu Salha, Ananda, through the destruction of the taints in this very lifetime has attained to the taint-free deliverance of mind and deliverance through wisdom, having directly known and realized it by himself. [17]

"The bhikkhuni Nanda, Ananda, through the destruction of the five lower fetters (that bind beings to the world of the senses), has arisen spontaneously (among the Suddhavasa deities) and will come to final cessation in that very place, not liable to return from that world.

"The layman Sudatta, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters (self-belief, doubt, and faith in the efficacy of rituals and observances), and the lessening of lust, hatred, and delusion, has become a once-returner and is bound to make an end of suffering after having returned but once more to this world.

"The laywoman Sujata, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters has become a stream-enterer, and is safe from falling into the states of misery, assured, and bound for Enlightenment.

"The layman Kakudha, Ananda, through the destruction of the five lower fetters (that bind beings to the world of the senses), has arisen spontaneously (among the Suddhavasa deities), and will come to final cessation in that very place, not liable to return from that world.

"So it is with Kalinga, Nikata, Katissabha, Tuttha, Santuttha, Bhadda, and Subhadda, and with more than fifty laymen in Nadika. More than ninety laymen who have passed away in Nadika, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters, and the lessening of lust, hatred, and delusion, have become once-returners and are bound to make an end of suffering after having returned but once more to this world.

"More than five hundred laymen who have passed away in Nadika, Ananda, through the complete destruction of the three fetters have become stream-enterers, and are safe from falling into the states of misery, assured, and bound for Enlightenment.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#fnt-17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


If there was no rebirth after death, then Buddha wouldn't say that such and such a person has been reborn here or there. If Ananda who knew D.O. would believe only in momentary D.O. that happens within this life, then Ananda would not ask the Buddha such question. Question of post-mortem destiny would not make sense if there were no rebirth for non-Arahants.
Nikaya35
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Nikaya35 »

Alex I agree with you . In the Nikayas the Buddha talk about literal karma and rebirth many times . Is clear that is part of his teachings. Claiming that the Buddha never teach both doctrines based in the Nikayas is a mayor BULL.... Infact nihilism ( denying karma and literal rebirth ) is a wrong view according to the Buddha in the Nikayas and eternalism as well. According to the nikayas the Buddha have 3 knowledges .( 1) The destruction of taints . (2) His past lives and (3) how beings get reborn in different destinations according to their karma . His followers asked him about the destination of others persons after death and he answers . In many sutras in the Nikayas the Buddha talk with devas and other Samsara beings . The truth is that Buddhism is a religion . Buddhism is a SPIRITUAL PATH . The teachings of the Buddha have things that can been verified by direct knowledge and experience by everyone and some aspects like Karma and Rebirth that can been verified by few beings . :smile: :smile:
Kenshou
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Kenshou »

If we're going to be picky, I don't think nihilism is the right word. I believe what is often translated as that is ucchedavada, which carries the implication of a self which gets annihilated. It is possible to believe in a lack of literal rebirth without believing that there is a self involved, just as it is possible to hold the view of literal rebirth without a self/soul/atma involved.

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha263.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, just a nitpick.
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