Hello everyone,
I have been practising breathing meditation. In my meditation, with my eyes closed I am focussing on the sensation of the breath as it passes in and out of the nose, not following it, just being aware of it as it passes the nostrils.
The problem I am having however is that I find it very difficult to fix my awareness onto a sensation without visualising the sensation/body part and what is happening. So for instance when I feel the air contacting with my nose I instinctively find that I am actually visualising in my mind what is happening, a nose and air passing over it. I have tried to focus on only the sensation without at the same time visualising what is occurring but I find this very difficult.
Is it normal to do this, as I my understanding was that the aim of the practise was to maintain awareness on a single thing, such as the sensation of breath and nothing else. If I am visualising what is happening, then my mind will be split between being focussed on the visualisation and also the sensation.
Is there a method to stop this?
Thank you
Concentration meditation difficulties
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
Its natural and in time your focus will be more precisely on the sensation.
Right now, don't get hung up on it and just give importance to the sensation.
kind regards
Ben
Right now, don't get hung up on it and just give importance to the sensation.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
Yes. What you want is to single out the tactile sensation at the nose. The nose is not a dominant tactile body impression (except when it hurts of course). I suggest to first learn to concentrate on a tactile sensation of an object that is more dominant. For many people the hands are strong tactile impressions, because we do a lot with our hands. My suggestion is to practice the way you did with the nose - but use a hand instead of the nose. If this does not work, yet, you can even use a stick or brush or something to move it along the skin of your hand and concentrate on this sensation with your eyes closed. Once you can single out the tactile sensation of the hand (each finger separately) you can develop this for the whole body, including the nose.darods wrote:Hello everyone,
I have been practising breathing meditation. In my meditation, with my eyes closed I am focussing on the sensation of the breath as it passes in and out of the nose, not following it, just being aware of it as it passes the nostrils.
The problem I am having however is that I find it very difficult to fix my awareness onto a sensation without visualising the sensation/body part and what is happening. So for instance when I feel the air contacting with my nose I instinctively find that I am actually visualising in my mind what is happening, a nose and air passing over it. I have tried to focus on only the sensation without at the same time visualising what is occurring but I find this very difficult.
Is it normal to do this, as I my understanding was that the aim of the practise was to maintain awareness on a single thing, such as the sensation of breath and nothing else. If I am visualising what is happening, then my mind will be split between being focussed on the visualisation and also the sensation.
Is there a method to stop this?
Thank you
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
In regard to the above, the "nose" is a perfectly fine as a place for paying attention, aware of the air passing in and out at the nostrils. Part of of the problem is that your obsessing a bit about the visual stuff. Don't worry about the visual stuff, don't try to make it go away, just gently pay attention to the sensation of air as it moves in and out at your nostrils. Continually, gently and easy, bring your attention to the sensation of the movement of air. There is no magic solution to your "problem" other than continually bringing your attention back to the sensation of the movement of air in and out.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
I was just referring to the point-to-point mapping of the body surfaces in the brain. The area for hand is usually larger than for nose, making concentration on it easier.tiltbillings wrote:In regard to the above, the "nose" is a perfectly fine as a place for paying attention, aware of the air passing in and out at the nostrils. Part of of the problem is that your obsessing a bit about the visual stuff. Don't worry about the visual stuff, don't try to make it go away, just gently pay attention to the sensation of air as it moves in and out at your nostrils. Continually, gently and easy, bring your attention to the sensation of the movement of air. There is no magic solution to your "problem" other than continually bringing your attention back to the sensation of the movement of air in and out.
But sure, one can work on the nose without developing the whole body awareness first if one wants. It is just more difficult. And in the end one needs the whole body awareness for kayanupassana anyway.At its simplest, the system works when activity in a sensory neuron is triggered by a specific stimulus such as heat; this signal eventually passes to an area in the brain uniquely attributed to that area on the body—this allows the processed stimulus to be felt at the correct location. The point-to-point mapping of the body surfaces in the brain is called a homunculus and is essential in the creation of a body image.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatosensory_system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
Not necessarily. Also, he is working with breath, why complicate things.Freawaru wrote:I was just referring to the point-to-point mapping of the body surfaces in the brain. The area for hand is usually larger than for nose, making concentration on it easier.tiltbillings wrote:In regard to the above, the "nose" is a perfectly fine as a place for paying attention, aware of the air passing in and out at the nostrils. Part of of the problem is that your obsessing a bit about the visual stuff. Don't worry about the visual stuff, don't try to make it go away, just gently pay attention to the sensation of air as it moves in and out at your nostrils. Continually, gently and easy, bring your attention to the sensation of the movement of air. There is no magic solution to your "problem" other than continually bringing your attention back to the sensation of the movement of air in and out.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
As I said. It makes it easier. The problem the OP describes is well known in Hatha Yoga and also the remedies. I doubt that the yogis at the time of the Buddha started with the nose. More likely they had several years of hatha yoga and pranayama practice before starting anapanasati. Going step by step is somtimes wiser than wanting too much too early.tiltbillings wrote:Not necessarily. Also, he is working with breath, why complicate things.
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
Not likely, as Hatha Yoga's earliest text is 15th Century. It was probably an Upanisadic formless meditation, or a concentration skill developed through memorization of texts. Then, of course, what about all the other social strata? They practiced the Dhamma as well without any of this prep - the Buddha exhorts the Sangha to establish its members in satipatthana ASAP.Freawaru wrote:I doubt that the yogis at the time of the Buddha started with the nose. More likely they had several years of hatha yoga and pranayama practice before starting anapanasati.
Sila remains the best preparation, then just mindful breathing in, just mindful breathing out - the step just before the first tetrad, before long and short are known. The feeling sense alone - skipping between it and the intellect sense is a problem, though in my experience the mind responds best to being trained like a puppy: gentle, patient, insistent, don't yell or berate.
Oh, there's the "vision" again, back to "breath in", "breath out".
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
Daverupa raised a few points of objection to your postion.Freawaru wrote:As I said. It makes it easier. The problem the OP describes is well known in Hatha Yoga and also the remedies. I doubt that the yogis at the time of the Buddha started with the nose. More likely they had several years of hatha yoga and pranayama practice before starting anapanasati. Going step by step is somtimes wiser than wanting too much too early.tiltbillings wrote:Not necessarily. Also, he is working with breath, why complicate things.
Simply, the person posting the original question is working with breath at his nose. There is no reason for him to shift his place of awareness. It is better to keep it simple and easy rather than adding a level of unneeded complication.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
Well, I am no historician but I doubt that the Shaolin could have developed their "Kung Fu" without some basic pranayama at the very least. And that was about a thousand years before 15th century.daverupa wrote:
Not likely, as Hatha Yoga's earliest text is 15th Century.
Have you proove that there was no version of hatha yoga (maybe under a different name) or pranayama around at the time of the Buddha?It was probably an Upanisadic formless meditation, or a concentration skill developed through memorization of texts.
It never was for me. And I think this was so because I did some hatha yoga and pranayama before ever trying anapanasati. As I said, sometimes it is better to go step by step. You don't try to ride a bike before being able to walk. But if you really would set your mind to it this can be done, too. It is just more difficult.Then, of course, what about all the other social strata? They practiced the Dhamma as well without any of this prep - the Buddha exhorts the Sangha to establish its members in satipatthana ASAP.
Sila remains the best preparation, then just mindful breathing in, just mindful breathing out - the step just before the first tetrad, before long and short are known. The feeling sense alone - skipping between it and the intellect sense is a problem,
But whatever works.
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
I woudl agree with you if it really was simple and easy for the OP. But as obviously it is not so I think it is not better at all. Sometimes, short cuts make long delays.tiltbillings wrote:[
Simply, the person posting the original question is working with breath at his nose. There is no reason for him to shift his place of awareness. It is better to keep it simple and easy rather than adding a level of unneeded complication.
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
Hi Darods,
While I see Anapanasati as just one of a number of possible approaches (there are plenty of other objects discussed in the Suttas), and some people do have problems with it due to some particular physical problem (in which case it makes a lot of sense to change objects) it doesn't seem to me that the problem here is the particular object.
This:
Some people will "get it" faster. Some slower...
If working without a teacher, it might be useful to listen to some guided meditation instructions. Some of Ajahn Brahm's) instructions on basic breath meditation (as well as other topics and teachers) are available here:
http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/downloads/ ... -hour.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/downloads/ ... -hour.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
While I see Anapanasati as just one of a number of possible approaches (there are plenty of other objects discussed in the Suttas), and some people do have problems with it due to some particular physical problem (in which case it makes a lot of sense to change objects) it doesn't seem to me that the problem here is the particular object.
This:
is a problem I had for several months when I started, and in my case I generally use much grosser objects (motion of the feet when walking, motion of the abdomen when sitting). This tendency to visualize, rather than focus on the object itself, is pervasive, and Tilt's advice is very apt:darods wrote:The problem I am having however is that I find it very difficult to fix my awareness onto a sensation without visualising the sensation/body part and what is happening.
In a quiet retreat setting a few days of just trying it, without worrying about whether you're doing it properly, would probably get a reasonable "aim" established on the object. If doing short sessions in everyday life it might take weeks or months.tiltbillings wrote:... Don't worry about the visual stuff, don't try to make it go away, just gently pay attention to the sensation of air as it moves in and out at your nostrils. Continually, gently and easy, bring your attention to the sensation of the movement of air. There is no magic solution to your "problem" other than continually bringing your attention back to the sensation of the movement of air in and out.
Some people will "get it" faster. Some slower...
If working without a teacher, it might be useful to listen to some guided meditation instructions. Some of Ajahn Brahm's) instructions on basic breath meditation (as well as other topics and teachers) are available here:
http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/downloads/ ... -hour.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/downloads/ ... -hour.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Darods,
While I see Anapanasati as just one of a number of possible approaches (there are plenty of other objects discussed in the Suttas), and some people do have problems with it due to some particular physical problem (in which case it makes a lot of sense to change objects) it doesn't seem to me that the problem here is the particular object.
This:is a problem I had for several months when I started, and in my case I generally use much grosser objects (motion of the feet when walking, motion of the abdomen when sitting). This tendency to visualize, rather than focus on the object itself, is pervasive, and Tilt's advice is very apt:darods wrote:The problem I am having however is that I find it very difficult to fix my awareness onto a sensation without visualising the sensation/body part and what is happening.In a quiet retreat setting a few days of just trying it, without worrying about whether you're doing it properly, would probably get a reasonable "aim" established on the object. If doing short sessions in everyday life it might take weeks or months.tiltbillings wrote:... Don't worry about the visual stuff, don't try to make it go away, just gently pay attention to the sensation of air as it moves in and out at your nostrils. Continually, gently and easy, bring your attention to the sensation of the movement of air. There is no magic solution to your "problem" other than continually bringing your attention back to the sensation of the movement of air in and out.
Some people will "get it" faster. Some slower...
If working without a teacher, it might be useful to listen to some guided meditation instructions. Some of Ajahn Brahm's) instructions on basic breath meditation (as well as other topics and teachers) are available here:
http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/downloads/ ... -hour.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/downloads/ ... -hour.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
No one is talking about short cuts. I am simply talking about doing Buddhist practice, simply and directly.Freawaru wrote:I woudl agree with you if it really was simple and easy for the OP. But as obviously it is not so I think it is not better at all. Sometimes, short cuts make long delays.tiltbillings wrote:[
Simply, the person posting the original question is working with breath at his nose. There is no reason for him to shift his place of awareness. It is better to keep it simple and easy rather than adding a level of unneeded complication.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Concentration meditation difficulties
And standard Theravadin garden-variety practice at that, too.tiltbillings wrote:I am simply talking about doing Buddhist practice, simply and directly.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..