Sustaining insight after retreat

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
householder
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Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by householder »

Hi all,

Finished an intensive retreat this week and returned home yesterday. During the retreat, there was very rapid movement through the stages of insight (after several days of relentless practice) up to insight into the instantaneous arising and ceasing of phenomena and the accompanying rapture (very intense but brief) and upekkha and a few other bits and pieces.

On waking this morning, the one-pointed concentration, automatic noting, sense of equanimity etc. remains in effect, but there is also awareness of the accompanying unpleasant physical sensations that occurred at the third stage and are continuing as this post is typed. The only answer, of course, is to keep practicing, and there will be several hours of practice after this post, but was curious to know from other's experiences as to whether and for how long this insight is sustained after retreat with continuous but not as intensive practice (i.e. 2-3 hours per day of sitting/walking in one hour blocks?) Or to phrase the question alternatively, how long until it all recedes? The last question is academic, as not practicing is out of the question, arising only out of curiosity, but an answer to the former would be appreciated as a gauge for the amount of time others practice each day that is needed to sustain (beyond 'as much time as you can' and an appreciation of the fact that mileage may vary).

Thanks,

hh
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tiltbillings
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

Sounding like a broken record, let me repeat this story:
After only a year and a half of practice at Wat Ba Pong, one American [Jack Kornfield] asked and received permission [from Ajahn Chah] to travel and study with other Thai and Burmese teachers. A year or two later, he returned full of tales of his travels, of many months of extraordinary and intensive practice and of a number of remarkable experiences. . . . Then the Western monk went to the cottage of Achaan Sumedho, the senior Western disciple of Achaan Chah, and told all his stories and adventures, his new understandings and great insights into practice. Sumedho listened in silence and prepared afternoon tea from the roots of certain forest plants. When the stories were completed and the insights recounted, Sumedho smiled and said, "Ah, how wonderful. Something else to let go of."
The point is to not to worry about all the "insights", not to worry about keeping what you have and trying to get more; rather, just do the practice. The reality is that the practice is really about letting go. Letting go is not something you can force; rather, it is a matter seeing things as they are, repeatedly over time. Just continue with the practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by Ben »

Yes, Tilt's advice is excellent. Just continue to practice precisely as per your instructions and I am sure you will do fine.
In daily life attend to your sila and devote 2-3 hours daily to mental cultivation.
Wishing you every success.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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householder
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by householder »

Ha yes part of the intention of the original post was to practice in order to move past the unpleasant physical sensations (as was abiding in them but still with the desire for them to not arise). Instead of engaging in desire for the sensations to go away, they were continuously noted and eventually ceased.

So the lessons were:

1. Simply note;
2. Keep practicing;
3. When in doubt, follow 1 and 2.

Also indicative of the immaturity of the practice.

Thanks
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Ben
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by Ben »

Hi householder

keep in mind that sensations, regardless whether they are pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, share the same characteristics. That is, they are impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Just keep maintaining your focus on meditation object as per your instructions without identifying with whatever you are experiencing or not experiencing. Also keep in mind that pleasant sensations are much more difficult to deal with as craving, particularly very subtle craving, is incredibly hard to manage.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
householder
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by householder »

Ben wrote:Hi householder

keep in mind that sensations, regardless whether they are pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, share the same characteristics. That is, they are impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Just keep maintaining your focus on meditation object as per your instructions without identifying with whatever you are experiencing or not experiencing. Also keep in mind that pleasant sensations are much more difficult to deal with as craving, particularly very subtle craving, is incredibly hard to manage.
kind regards

Ben
Hi Ben,

The above approach was effortless and automatic during the period of upekkha - then things were just arising and ceasing and there was just abiding in what was, with no happiness or sadness, pleasantness or unpleasantness, desire or aversion arising. But now there is an awareness of pleasant and unpleasant associations with what is arising and an awareness of desire towards the pleasurable and away from the unpleasurable, although there's no 'I' identification associated with any of this, so need to keep on practicing per the teacher's advice and per yours and tilt's encouragement. Thanks.
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Ben
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by Ben »

Your welcome householder.
All sorts of emotional and mental detritus comes up during this process, well at least it did for me, so sometimes it can seem a bit confusing. Taking steps forward only to find yourself dealing with mental contents that makes you feel, even if temporarily, you are sliding backwards.
All the very best.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
householder
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by householder »

Very much so Ben - there's a sense of regression from that upekkha and attachment to that state, leading to a desire to return to it (which occurred from the moment of the next sitting after that period), which of course will hinder practice. Need to work through this one.
Sidney
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by Sidney »

Dear Householder,

It's been nearly a year since your post (sorry, I've got the dates wrong by looking at the date you've joined), and I'm sure you would have encountered more experiences by now.
You might want to know what will happen to these insights that you have already experienced with contnuing practice and also without continuing practice.

I will share this information that I have gathered and experienced from a similar condition. Based upon your description,
if I may allow to give an opinion, I am inclined to think that you could have developed an insight level equivalent to 'udayabbaya nana' or the fourth stage if we were to classify the vipassana insights into 16.

Udayabbaya nana is the insight into formations/becomings and dissolutions/ceasations of mind and matter by direct experience and realization when someone is practising vipassana meditation and has already achieved samadhi or one-pointedness concentration. Here, one will surely develop 'upek kilesa' or hinderances to progress further. They are altogether ten in number, one of which fits with the description you have made, which is 'piti' or rapture, extreme satisfaction, clamness and peace. Again, there are five varieties of piti, but I am not going to elaborate them.

They are regarded as hinderances to progress as they tend to capture the yogi/meditator and bound the person to this level of insight until and unless the person knows how to overcome this barrier. These hinderances can also occur when someone is practising samatha or transcendental meditation and has achieved strong samatha.

What will happen with continuing practice?
You may either stuck to this level if you do not have right guidiance OR
proceed into next stage 'bangha nana' which is one of the higher insights in vipassana practice. I will not elaborate on this insight at this moment as it could influence your progress in a negative aspect if you know the theory and will expect the experience.

What will happen if you stop practising meditation?
Vipassana meditation is unlike samatha meditation where one can fall from a higher level to zero. It is like a technique or a skill that you have developed which will never go away but may become less skillful if you are out of practice. For insctance if you have learned how to ride a bicycle or to swim, you will never forget these skills but may be less efficient without continuing practice.

What will happen if you have stopped practising vipassana and have already reached the insight of 'udayabbaya nana?'
If you have reached this insight level through vipassana meditation and for some reason could not practise further, you could be free of a rebirth into four unpleasant states; viz. as an animal, as a 'peta' or unpleasant spiritual existence that includes ghosts, demons, gnomes, etc., as an 'asura' or fallen angel roughly, and as a hell being, PROVIDED you have realized the three characteristics of nature viz. suffering (dukkha), impermanence (anicca), and impersonal (anatta) through learning, and realization with vipassana meditation.

Will you forget in your next life what you have learnt and have developed the skill in this life?
The answer is NO; as the parami or the fulfillment that you have developed will help you to practice vipassana somehow in your next life if you born as a human again.
If you born as a deva or an angel/god in heavens you will come into touch with vipassana in four different ways (sota nugatta sutta). I can elaborate into this subject if anyone is interested but would not do so for the time being.
best wishes into your practice!

Sidney
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octathlon
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by octathlon »

How about letting go of posting the "something else to let go of" quote whenever someone asks a question about their experience? Speaking for those of us who don't have access to a teacher, when we are dealing with new experiences as a result of our practice, the message is that we're not going to get any help here either and we shouldn't ask. That quote is criticising them as either bragging or stupid, when I think many times people are trying to get a little reassurance that what is happening is normal, or how they should deal with what can be quite unsettling experiences.
householder
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by householder »

Righto all that aversion to loss of insight and desire to keep the insights/feeling/concentration has faded now and I've realised it was a form of attachment, causing suffering. Carrying on.
householder
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by householder »

Right well that was interesting...

Sat on the PC surfing the net generally when I noted a very slow vibrating/pulsing in my upper arms towards the hands. Immediately went to do a 45 minute sit and the following occurred:

The vibrations/pulses were all over my body, were not synchronised and some would persist for ages, particularly along the outside part of my right arm and right outside part of neck, sometimes but not always there was a distinction between the arms pulsing and the neck pulsing, whereas vibrations/pulses would vibrate a couple of times only in other parts of the body. [EDIT: There was a sense of a residual 'echo' after the 'pulse']

The one-pointed concentration on rising and falling of the abdomen was well and truly gone - awareness was only established for a couple of breaths, and even then there was no discernment of 'stages' of in and out breath as before. There was simply 'rising', and 'falling' [EDIT: To clarify, couldn't discern the beginning of the rising or beginning of the falling, like coming part way through the middle and it ending.] Likewise there was no discernment of the sensation of the abdomen. Just a general feeling of rising and falling. Felt like breathing in and out in 'blocks' rather than the smooth and perceptible process previously. The awareness was far more on the vibrations, which felt like they were 'outside' the circle of awareness when it was on the breath. So eventually I stopped trying to force attention on the breath and let awareness drift around the various vibrations, noting 'vibrating, vibrating'. Noting of anything else was only of loud external sounds such as doors opening and closing (in fairness that pretty much the only gross sounds there were). No subtle discernment of secondary objects as before. There was a very dull sensation of stretching pain in the right leg but it almost negligble.

Eventually this all ceased ceased and for a few moments there was stillness. Couldn't discern rising and falling of abodmen. The ringing in my left ear (fairly constant even when not meditating) then became nearly deafening and filled my entire head.

Then there was a perception of the upper part of the body gently shaking or rocking back and forth. Whether this was physically happening or not I'm not sure, but there was a constant sense of 'back, forth', which was noted accordingly. The perception of rising and falling returned, albeit faintly, and I was aware that when there was 'rising' the shaking seemed to slow, but not stop completely. Then after 'falling' there was rocking again. Then the vibrations started again, this time noticeably quicker in both frequency and occurrences throughout the body. The shaking was far less perceptible to the point where at times I wasn't sure if it was even continuing. After a while of noting the vibrations, they also ceased. Then the shaking came back up. This time it felt rocking in a diagonal direction the North East and was a bit more intense, there was perception of the right leg rocking slightly as well. At one stage there was even perception of awareness 'shaking' in synchronicity with the physical sensation of shaking. During this time, the rising and falling almost completely ceased and there didn't seem to be much of anything else to perceive other than rocking. A couple of times when the non-self was investigated, fear arose in the sense of 'what the hell is going on?' This was noted and investigated (why has this arisen? because of lack of control of what's going on) and passed away. Then the rocking seemed to slow down and the bell went.

Throughout all this there was a slight pressure in the right of centre of the forehead.

After typing that I sat back and was aware of the vibrations still occurring at various parts of the body, but a lot more faintly than the full occupation of awareness they had when sitting. My vision also seems to be shaking ever so subtly.

Just listened to some bass tones on YouTube. The first set of vibrations were slightly more than 5hz and less than 10hz and the second felt slightly faster than the first set.
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Ben
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by Ben »

Hi hh

To me it looks like you are perceiving subtle vedanas which manifest as vibrations. In your situation I maintain sampajjana with regards to the primary object and continue to develop upekkha regardless of the nature of the experience (pleasant, unpleasant or neutral). The other thing I wanted to say, if I haven't already, don't read too much into what's going on. Its just the phenomenology of experience evanscing and cascading. Rise and fall. Rise and fall.
with Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Goofaholix
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by Goofaholix »

Insight doersn't need to be sustained because Insight doesn't fall away, if it falls away then it wasn't Insight.

What does fall away is the ability to consistantly maintain and practise a technique that creates the causes and conditions that give rise to Insight, this is normal and it sounds like you are doing better at maintaining it than most.

I think the thing is to realise that the causes and conditions have changed so the technique must change with it, struggling to maintain a technique that is suitable for a retreat in a daily life situation probably arises out of attachment.

So instead of expecting to be able to notice everything in minute detail as you did on retreat apply awareness in a more natural more boroad brush way. True Insight knows how to practice differently when necessary depending on the circumstances.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
alan
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Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by alan »

I think tilt had it right.
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