Sustaining insight after retreat

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
householder
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:00 pm

Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by householder »

The last sit:
- barely discernible rising and falling with no sense of physical connection
- constant pulsing/vibrating in different parts of the body with no synchronicity (some areas pulsed once, others pulsed several times, and it was constantly moving and many pulses all over the body in rapid succession)
- there were too many pulses at a time to catch them coming up, only being able to note many instances of 'pulsing' and their cessation. The anicca and anatta of them was clearly evident.
- an inability to focus on the rising and falling of abdomen for any sustained period
- no discernment of any other bodily sensations aside from posture, leaning forward and head staring at the navel, which was adjusted.

After 20 minutes I couldn't take it any more and ended the sit prematurely. Mistake, I know, and regretted it after. It's not particularly pleasant but it's not particularly painful either, and all of the previous upekkha and concentration has well and truly vanished.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

householder wrote:The last sit: . . .
Geez, don't worry about all that stuff; it'll drive you crazy, and it sounds like it is already driving you to distraction. Just sit, just pay attention.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
householder
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:00 pm

Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by householder »

Tilt, given I've gone in just over a week from barely being able to focus on the breath for several breaths to several vastly different states with different phenomenon, now manifested in the breath going from perfectly discernible and concentrated to being vague and lots of peripheral sensations which are becoming the main object of attention, it's a little overwhelming and I'm having difficulty discerning whether to keep focusing on rising and falling no matter what, forcing attention on the same, or allow awareness to be what it is and where it is at each moment.

As Goofaholix says, conditions and practice on retreat are different to practice off retreat so I'm in the process of feeling my way through. It's all very well saying "Just sit, pay attention", but to what? The rising and falling, like on retreat, which is becoming more solid, less discernible, or these vibrations/pulses, or both, or the whole thing? Your advice is vague and unhelpful.
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by Ben »

Greeting hh,

I'm not experienced in the Mahasi style of Vipassana but I do have extensive experience in the U Ba Khin/Goenka style of Vipassana. There's a lot of overlap but I'm not qualified to give you detailed instruction.
I think its very important to speak to the monk at the retreat centre or someone else in a teaching capacity at the centre so that you receive specific detailed instruction that is tailored to you, where you are at and the particular instructions you have been given previously.
You might think Tilt's advice is unhelpful but in fact it is the kernel of all vipassana. Just pay attention (to rise and fall). Whether you pay attention to the primary meditation object of the rise and fall of the abdomen, or bodily sensation, mental contents, or move your awareness to the most dominant dhamma manifesting - that is going to depend on the particular style of vipassana you have been taught and the instructions should be sympatico with the tradition.
Tilt is right - its just stuff. As I said earlier - phenomenology cascading and evanescing. You either ignore it while you pay attention to a primary object of meditation or you pay attention to it as your primary object. Sorting that out with a qualified teacher or monastic at the retreat centre I think should be a priority.
Wishing you the very best,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

householder wrote:Tilt, given I've gone in just over a week from barely being able to focus on the breath for several breaths to several vastly different states with different phenomenon, now manifested in the breath going from perfectly discernible and concentrated to being vague and lots of peripheral sensations which are becoming the main object of attention, it's a little overwhelming and I'm having difficulty discerning whether to keep focusing on rising and falling no matter what, forcing attention on the same, or allow awareness to be what it is and where it is at each moment.

As Goofaholix says, conditions and practice on retreat are different to practice off retreat so I'm in the process of feeling my way through. It's all very well saying "Just sit, pay attention", but to what? The rising and falling, like on retreat, which is becoming more solid, less discernible, or these vibrations/pulses, or both, or the whole thing? Your advice is vague and unhelpful.
In other words, you have driven yourself to distraction. Pay attention to your breathing and don't worry about all the other stuff. Just bring your attention gently back to your breath -- in and out. Or if it is your abdomen that you are watching, then rise and fall. Gently, time and again, bringing your attention back to the rise and fall. Keep it simple and easy.

And if you have a teacher with whom you are working, contact him/her for advice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
householder
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:00 pm

Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by householder »

Ok thanks both, will carry on. Sorry to criticise tilt and I ask for your forgiveness for the harsh speech.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

octathlon wrote:How about letting go of posting the "something else to let go of" quote whenever someone asks a question about their experience? Speaking for those of us who don't have access to a teacher, when we are dealing with new experiences as a result of our practice, the message is that we're not going to get any help here either and we shouldn't ask. That quote is criticising them as either bragging or stupid, when I think many times people are trying to get a little reassurance that what is happening is normal, or how they should deal with what can be quite unsettling experiences.
Did not see your post until just now. Quite frankly, "something else to let go of" is very much to the point. It is not saying don't ask questions or do not talk about your experiences, it is not saying that to ask for reassurance is bragging nor is it saying that one is stupid, but it is pointing to the fundamental point that it is all too easy to get caught up in the "experience" and the wanting of the "experience."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

householder wrote:Ok thanks both, will carry on. Sorry to criticise tilt and I ask for your forgiveness for the harsh speech.
Nothing to forgive. I think you were feeling a bit frustrated, and it can be frustrating trying to sort all this out, especially when it is so new. Just be gentle with yourself and with your practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sidney
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:42 am

Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by Sidney »

Vibrations and letting them go to develop equaminity are the final instructions one may have when meditating under certain teachers, but I think this is more of samatha than of vipassana as it seems to lack the insight wisdom to appreciate the characteristics of existence; viz. 'anicca, dukkha and anatta' which is a necessacity to progress into further insights. I have gathered that the highest achievement of such a practice would be a rebirth in one of the Brahma realms, and there is no gurantee for enlightenment if reborn as a Brahma and may even miss the opportunity for enlightenment en masse with the future buddha, since some Brahmas have no faculties to ascertain Dhamma.

I have been to many camps and have practised few techniques including observing vibrations from head to toes & vice versa, penetrating in and out of body and letting them go, but I found that the instructions given by the late Mogok Sayadaw who was a reknown arahat from Burma were most helpful. It combines basic theory with practice to understand the three characteristcs mentioned earlier.
metta,

Sidney
User avatar
altar
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:24 pm
Location: Great Barrington, MA

Re: Sustaining insight after retreat

Post by altar »

Relax...

also, i agree with goofaholix, that there is nothing to be sustained and this is what insight is about.
on the other hand there is the buddha's simile of starting a fire. it doesn't start if you rub the sticks together on and off, but it must be continual and for a while.
Post Reply