Do good people go to Hell?

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Do good people go to Hell?

Postby Dhammabodhi » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:15 am

A Dhamma story by Ajahn Brahm:




:anjali:
Dhammabodhi
-Samāhitam cittam yathābhutam pajānāti.

समाहितं चित्तं यथाभूतं पजानाती |

A concentrated mind sees things as they really are.

-Ujuko nāma so maggo, abhayā nāma sā disā.

उजुको नाम सो माग्गो, अभया नाम सा दिसा |

'Straight' is this path, fearlessness is its way.
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby perkele » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:52 pm

Not available in Germany due to copyright issues with the music... :/
Will I go to hell or not?
:thinking:
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby Dhammabodhi » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:29 am

Hello perkele,

I'm sorry to hear that, and also surprised since it is accessible in France. I tried to find the Dhamma talk of Ajahn Brahm from which this video has been made, unfortunately it seems that it is no longer available online. Sorry. :(
-Samāhitam cittam yathābhutam pajānāti.

समाहितं चित्तं यथाभूतं पजानाती |

A concentrated mind sees things as they really are.

-Ujuko nāma so maggo, abhayā nāma sā disā.

उजुको नाम सो माग्गो, अभया नाम सा दिसा |

'Straight' is this path, fearlessness is its way.
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby cooran » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:53 am

Hello all,

Not by Ajahn Brahmavamso, but still clarifying the question in the title of this thread:

Who will be reborn in Hell?
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Hell/hell.html#Who

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby perkele » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:47 pm

Oh, thank you guys.
@Chris: Is the content of Ajahn Brahm's talk very closely related to the writings of Bhikkhu Pesala?
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby EmptyShadow » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:10 pm

cooran wrote:Hello all,

Not by Ajahn Brahmavamso, but still clarifying the question in the title of this thread:

Who will be reborn in Hell?
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Hell/hell.html#Who

with metta
Chris



If one lives heedlessly, enjoying sensual pleasures as much as possible, even though one generally observes the moral precepts, one is unlikely to escape from rebirth in hell.


So if you are good person you still go to hell according to this?
What about the heavens where devas enjoy much supperior sensual pleasures then us, that cant be resisted. It seems that existence in the heaven will automaticaly bring you to hell.
it's kinda unfair :thinking:
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby manas » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:22 am

EmptyShadow wrote:
cooran wrote:Hello all,

Not by Ajahn Brahmavamso, but still clarifying the question in the title of this thread:

Who will be reborn in Hell?
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Hell/hell.html#Who

with metta
Chris



If one lives heedlessly, enjoying sensual pleasures as much as possible, even though one generally observes the moral precepts, one is unlikely to escape from rebirth in hell.


So if you are good person you still go to hell according to this?
What about the heavens where devas enjoy much supperior sensual pleasures then us, that cant be resisted. It seems that existence in the heaven will automaticaly bring you to hell.
it's kinda unfair :thinking:

Hi emptyshadow,
I wrote my personal opinion before, but I deleted it, and have decided to leave it to the experts in sutta to answer that one. I'm just leaving one opinion, if I may: let us not live fearfully. With virtue, right recollection and wisdom as protection, may we live fearlessly!

:anjali:
The greatest warrior of all time turned out to be the most peaceful one.
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby Anders » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:41 am

EmptyShadow wrote:What about the heavens where devas enjoy much supperior sensual pleasures then us, that cant be resisted. It seems that existence in the heaven will automaticaly bring you to hell.
it's kinda unfair :thinking:


Samsara is a bitch. And if you look at what the Buddha said about the number of people who go downwards and upwards, the majority of beings spend most of their time in lower realms. Which is why the Buddha stressed liberation. Samsara is not fair and balanced in regards to suffering, it's a system slanted towards preserving itself. On the whole, it's just a bad deal.

But you can see this effect in this world as well: Politicians etc who start out by doing a lot of good and reap the karmic rewards in this life by enjoying fame, power and reputation. Their conditions change, suddenly they have far more outlets for their desires and they end up bad. And with a host of people who can't understand how someone who has done so much for the community etc would end up sleeping with someone's else wife, become a pawn of the corporates, etc.

Good deeds and intents breed good results. But good results don't necessarily breed good intent and actions. Which is why the Buddha stressed diligence. Resting on one's laurels is a bit like Sisyphus taking a break for a little while and expecting the rock to stay in place on the mountain.
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby manas » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:55 am

Anders Honore wrote:Good deeds and intents breed good results. But good results don't necessarily breed good intent and actions. Which is why the Buddha stressed diligence.


I read somewhere (in a sutta) that from dukkha, saddha can arise. So our life might be difficult (bad results from past / present kammas), but this can turn into something good - the arising of faith / conviction in the dhamma.
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:52 am

The Mahākammavibhanga Sutta (The Greater Exposition of Kamma) may be the most relevant to this question.

The only sure guarantee to avoid falling into the four lower realms (including hell) is to practise insight meditation to the stage of the first path, and become a Stream-winner.

Failing that, you can be sure that wholesome kamma will give a happy result, and unwholesome kamma will give an unhappy result, so avoid the latter and cultivate the former. The most important thing to do in this life is to cultivate the wholesome kamma of insight meditation, which is directed towards the cessation of kamma, not aiming to gain rebirth in heaven, but aiming towards the cessation of rebirth.

Birth Depends on Actions
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby maitreya31 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:47 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The Mahākammavibhanga Sutta (The Greater Exposition of Kamma) may be the most relevant to this question.

The only sure guarantee to avoid falling into the four lower realms (including hell) is to practise insight meditation to the stage of the first path, and become a Stream-winner.

Failing that, you can be sure that wholesome kamma will give a happy result, and unwholesome kamma will give an unhappy result, so avoid the latter and cultivate the former. The most important thing to do in this life is to cultivate the wholesome kamma of insight meditation, which is directed towards the cessation of kamma, not aiming to gain rebirth in heaven, but aiming towards the cessation of rebirth.

Birth Depends on Actions

Yes The Greater Exposition of Action the sutra #136 of the Majjhima Nikaya was the one that I thought . According to the Buddha some good beings can being reborn in inferior destinations and some bad beings can been reborn is in good destinations. The good beings that get reborn in inferior destinations it is because of the bad karma that ripens after their death from the countless of previous lives. Their good karma will ripen in future lives and viceversa in the case of bad beings getting reborn in good destinations . :anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby manas » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:38 pm

maitreya31 wrote:Yes The Greater Exposition of Action the sutra #136 of the Majjhima Nikaya was the one that I thought . According to the Buddha some good beings can being reborn in inferior destinations and some bad beings can been reborn is in good destinations. The good beings that get reborn in inferior destinations it is because of the bad karma that ripens after their death from the countless of previous lives. Their good karma will ripen in future lives and viceversa in the case of bad beings getting reborn in good destinations . :anjali: :anjali: :anjali:


Man, if it's like that, where despite current good actions, I can still get dragged down for past bad ones, then this deal (Samsara) is looking worse and worse...

"There must be some kind of way out of here,"
Said the joker to the thief,
"There's too much confusion,
I can't get no relief.
Businessmen they drink my wine,
Plowman dig my earth
None will level on the line, nobody offered his word, hey"

"No reason to get excited,"
The thief, he kindly spoke
"There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I, we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late"


-Jimi Hendrix
The greatest warrior of all time turned out to be the most peaceful one.
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby maitreya31 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:59 am

manasikara wrote:
maitreya31 wrote:Yes The Greater Exposition of Action the sutra #136 of the Majjhima Nikaya was the one that I thought . According to the Buddha some good beings can being reborn in inferior destinations and some bad beings can been reborn is in good destinations. The good beings that get reborn in inferior destinations it is because of the bad karma that ripens after their death from the countless of previous lives. Their good karma will ripen in future lives and viceversa in the case of bad beings getting reborn in good destinations . :anjali: :anjali: :anjali:


Man, if it's like that, where despite current good actions, I can still get dragged down for past bad ones, then this deal (Samsara) is looking worse and worse...

"There must be some kind of way out of here,"
Said the joker to the thief,
"There's too much confusion,
I can't get no relief.
Businessmen they drink my wine,
Plowman dig my earth
None will level on the line, nobody offered his word, hey"

"No reason to get excited,"
The thief, he kindly spoke
"There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I, we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late"


-Jimi Hendrix


Yes it is a frightening picture if we think about it.
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:04 am

DUE TO the darkness without any light,
the deathless upper land is out of sight.
In time, you can’t struggle on in any way,
drifting in the whirlpool in this bay all day

NOW, it’s the most favourable chance,
five rare attainments to enhance,
oh! You’re a man of international fame,
and you’ve plenty of affairs all the same.

They seem important and real,
but they are not worthy nor essential.
Your viewpoint is neither clear nor right,
in charcoal-room at dark cloudy midnight.

You perform good actions occasionally,
according to your whims, traditionally.
Time is steadily passing without stopping,
as to death, the leveller, you’re approaching.

As a gift or fee for the executioner,
with various foods, to present or to offer,
resting in the aggregates of wealthy chamber,
you are waiting to die with satisfaction
enjoying the worldly assumed perfection.

THOUGH they’re causes of grief and despair,
you fancy them to be a pleasant affair,
with unseen starting point of life,
in the process of existences that strike,
always you’re in perpetual hunger,
without quenching the thirst of desire.
You’re seeking taste in objects as in reality,
but they’re just a pile of ash in fragility.
Hoisting the banner of self-centred ‘I,’
you live like a villager’s swine in sty.
That pig will become fatter and fatter
for food, its danger is nearer and nearer.
You’re haughty and proud in society,
lofty with status and without anxiety,
you’re happy and pragmatic
just like that villager’s pig.
Screened by custom, pride, society, and glory,
far from seeing any truth or reality,
you have to face the total loss at last,
to mingle with common ash and earth.

THE EMPIRE of ‘I’ is very large,
in three eras from sky to earth.
Fire of death is blazing down ever and anon,
that won’t leave even a tiny atom,
shaking the whole universe
death, the murderer, is at large.

The existences or lives are only fuel.
Appearance and disappearance are perpetual,
death is the only monarch,
in cycles of world after world.

You can’t have the knowledge of reality,
on conditional materiality and mentality;
when will you be able to extinguish the fire
that’s very dangerous, ferocious and dire?

(Gambhīra Dīpanī Venerable Ledi Sayādaw)
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby Ben » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:13 am

manasikara wrote:
"There must be some kind of way out of here,"
...
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late"


-Jimi Hendrix


A'hem...
Actually, its a Bob Dylan song from 1968

http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/all-along-the-watchtower

kind regards

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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:40 am

Ben wrote:Actually, its a Bob Dylan song from 1968

Yes, but apparently Bob liked Jimi's version so much he performs it as a kind of Jimi tribute...

Some will remember the version from a few years ago which added the Exodus theme at the start...

This isn't that version. In fact it's hard to find Bob videos. He has a team of lawyers...

http://www.vbox7.com/play:c5baa6ee

:anjali:
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby manas » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:35 am

Ben wrote:
manasikara wrote:
"There must be some kind of way out of here,"
...
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late"


-Jimi Hendrix


A'hem...
Actually, its a Bob Dylan song from 1968

http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/all-along-the-watchtower

kind regards

Ben
I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification. I know a fair bit about Classical Music, but sometimes my lack of knowledge about popular styles is revealed, darn it... :embarassed:

:namaste:
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby Ben » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:47 am

manasikara wrote:
Ben wrote:
manasikara wrote:
"There must be some kind of way out of here,"
...
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late"


-Jimi Hendrix


A'hem...
Actually, its a Bob Dylan song from 1968

http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/all-along-the-watchtower

kind regards

Ben
I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification. I know a fair bit about Classical Music, but sometimes my lack of knowledge about popular styles is revealed, darn it... :embarassed:

:namaste:


No worries. Its a common mistake.
Hendrix did do an incredible cover and one that even, according to legend, made St Bob proud.

As for the orignal topic, do good people go to hell?
Probably, at some point.

HellFreezesOver.jpg
HellFreezesOver.jpg (20.73 KiB) Viewed 1152 times


kind regards

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby asdf » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:09 pm

I'm new to Buddhism. What's the difference between the Christian/theist concept of hell and Buddhist hell? From what I gather Christians, Muslims, etc. believe that people suffer in a fiery pit for all of eternity while getting whipped by Satan and such. I know that Buddhism is all about impermanent states of being, but was there ever any elaboration on what hell is actually like? Is it seemingly never ending physical pain or something else? Is there physical pain or just some transparent perception of it?
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby Ben » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:49 pm

Getting whipped by Satan? That sounds kinda hot!
Seriously...
The fundamental difference is that the depiction of hell preserved in the Theravada is that one's stay in a hell realm is impermanent. One's stay in hell may be for an extraordinarily long time, but it eventually ends. There are also different hells.
As to whethr hell is real or metaphorical - both interpretations have currency. There are also some very graphical depictions but I don't have time at the moment to source those for you. Perhaps some of our knowledgeable members can point you in the right direction.
kind regards

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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