Do good people go to Hell?

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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby bodom » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:02 am

asdf wrote:but was there ever any elaboration on what hell is actually like?...


Happy reading!

Majjhima Nikaya 129:

‘In the same manner bhikkhus, the unpleasantess and displeasure experienced on account of giving six thousand whips three times a day .cannot be reckoned as a comparison, not even as a quarter, nor even as a sign for the unpleasantness and displeasure experienced in hell. The warders of hell give him the fivefold binding. That is two hot iron spikes are sent through his two palms, and two other hot spikes are sent through his two feet and the fifth hot iron spike is sent through his chest. On account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell conduct him and hammer him on account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell take him upside down and cut him with a knife on account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell yoke him to a cart and make him go to and fro on a ground that is flaming and ablaze On account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell make him ascend and descend a rock of burning embers On account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell throw him upside down into a boiling, blazing pot of molten. There he is cooked in the molten scum, and he on his own accord dives in comes up and goes across in the molten pot.On account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes.Next the warders of hell throw him to the Great Hell. Bhikkhus, the Great Hell is square and has four gates. It’s divided into two and is enclosed with an iron wall. The top is closed with an iron lid. The floor spreads up to seven hundred miles and it stands there everyday...Again, bhikkhus, the wise one sees an offender taken hold by the king and given various kinds of torture caned and wipped, flogged with the jungle rope, flogged with the soiled stick, hands severed, legs severed, or both hands and legs severed, ears and nose severed, put in the boiling gruel pot, shell tonsured, put in Raahu’s mouth, garlanded with the blazing garland, hands scorched, the bark dress given, put with snakes, putting hooks in theflesh, cutting pieces of flesh from the body, driving a spike from ear to ear, beating to make the body like straw, immersing in the boiling oil, giving to the dogs to be eaten, raising on a spike alive until death, and cutting the neck with the sword. Bhikkhus, then it occurs to the wise one for the reason of doing evil this robber, evil doer is punished. These things are not evident in me.I too see these as evil. This is the second instance that the wise one experiences pleasantness and pleasure.


http://www.vipassana.info/129-balapandita-e.htm

Majjhima Nikaya 130:

“Now the wardens of hell torture him with the fivefold transfixing. They drive a red-hot iron stake through one hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through one foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through his belly. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

11. “Next the wardens of hell throw him down and pare him with axes. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

12. “Next the wardens of hell set him with his feet up and his head down and pare him with adzes. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

13. “Next the wardens of hell harness him to a chariot and drive him back and forth across ground that is burning, blazing, and glowing. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

14. “Next the wardens of hell make him climb up and down a great mound of coals that are burning, blazing, and glowing. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

15. “Next the wardens of hell take him feet up and head down and plunge him into a red-hot metal cauldron that is burning, blazing, and glowing. He is cooked there in a swirl of froth. And as he is being cooked there in a swirl of froth, he is swept now up, now down, and now across. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

16. “Next the wardens of hell throw him into the Great Hell. Now as to that Great Hell, bhikkhus:

It has four corners and is built

With four doors, one set in each side,

Walled up with iron and all around

And shut in with an iron roof.

Its floor as well is made of iron

And heated till it glows with fire.

The range is a full hundred leagues

Which covers all-pervasively.

17. “Now the flames that surge out from the Great Hell’s eastern wall dash against its western wall. The flames that surge out from its western wall dash against its eastern wall. The flames that surge out from its northern wall dash against its southern wall. The flames that surge out from its southern wall dash against its northern wall. The flames that surge out from the bottom dash against the top. And the flames that surge out from the top dash against the bottom. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

18. “Some time or other, bhikkhus, at the end of a long period, there comes an occasion when the Great Hell’s eastern door is opened. He runs towards it, treading quickly. As he does so, his outer skin burns, his inner skin burns, his flesh burns, his sinews burn, his bones turn to smoke; and it is the same when his foot is uplifted. When at long last he reaches the door, then it is shut. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

“Some time or other, bhikkhus, at the end of a long period, there comes an occasion when the Great Hell’s western door is opened…when its northern door is opened…when its southern door is opened. He runs towards it, treading quickly…When at long last he reaches the door, then it is shut. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

19. “Some time or other, bhikkhus, at the end of a long period, there comes an occasion when the Great Hell’s eastern door is opened. He runs towards it, treading quickly. As he does so, his outer skin burns, his inner skin burns, his flesh burns, his sinews burn, his bones turn to smoke; and it is the same when his foot is uplifted. He comes out by that door.

20. “Immediately next to the Great Hell is the vast Hell of Excrement. He falls into that. In that Hell of Excrement needle-mouthed creatures bore through his outer skin and bore through his inner skin and bore through his flesh and bore through his bones and devour his marrow. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

21. “Immediately next to the Hell of Excrement is the vast Hell of Hot Embers. He falls into that. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

22. “Immediately next to the Hell of Hot Embers is the vast Wood of Simbali Trees, a league high, bristling with thorns sixteen finger-breadths long, burning, blazing, and glowing. They make him climb up and down those trees. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

23. “Immediately next to the Wood of Simbali Trees is a vast Wood of Sword-leaf Trees. He goes into that. The leaves, stirred by the wind, cut his hands and cut his feet and cut his hands and feet; they cut his ears and cut his nose and cut his ears and nose. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

24. “Immediately next to the Wood of Sword-leaf Trees is a great river of caustic water. He falls into that. There he is swept along the stream and against the stream and both along and against the stream. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

25. “Next the wardens of hell pull him out with a hook, and setting him on the ground, they ask him: ‘Good man, what do you want?’ He says: ‘I am hungry, venerable sirs.’ Then the wardens of hell prise open his mouth with red-hot iron tongs, burning, blazing, and glowing, and they throw into this mouth a red-hot metal ball, burning, blazing, and glowing. It burns his lips, it burns his mouth, it burns his throat, it burns his stomach, and it passes out below carrying with it his intestines and mesentery. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

26. “Next, the wardens of hell ask him: ‘Good man, what do you want?’ He says: ‘I am thirsty, venerable sirs.’ Then the wardens of hell prise open his mouth with red-hot iron tongs, burning, blazing, and glowing, and they pour into his mouth molten copper, burning, blazing, and glowing. It burns his lips, it burns his mouth, it burns his throat, it burns his stomach, and it passes out below carrying with it his intestines and mesentery. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

27. “Then the wardens of hell throw him back again into the Great Hell.

28. “It has happened that King Yama thought: ‘Those in the world who do evil unwholesome actions indeed have all these many kinds of tortures inflicted on them. Oh, that I might attain the human state, that a Tathāgata, accomplished and fully enlightened, might appear in the world, that I might wait on that Blessed One, that the Blessed One might teach me the Dhamma, and that I might come to understand that Blessed One’s Dhamma!’

29. “Bhikkhus, I tell you this not as something I heard from another recluse or brahmin. I tell you this as something that I have actually known, seen, and discovered by myself.”

30. That is what the Blessed One said.


http://www.palicanon.org/en/sutta-pitak ... ngers.html

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The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby manas » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:45 am

There's a saying that 'the punishment should fit the crime'. That being the case, I might expect the likes of war criminals and torturers to end up in such a place, since they caused so much pain and misery to others; but certainly not ordinary people who, although not caring for the spiritual life, nevertheless did not cause others such pain and misery.

We should keep this in perspective. You would have to do some pretty bad things to end up there! Note that the Buddha keeps saying "Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes."That implies that it's all very precise, this working out of kamma. There is a time limit, because (I would presume) the Law of Cause and Effect is perfect and operates precisely. (Or doesn't it? Any further information here?)
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby asdf » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:30 am

Thank you, bodom and Ben. Sounds awful. But the idea of there being more than one hell for different crimes/negative kamma makes sense.
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:34 am

asdf wrote:What's the difference between the Christian/theist concept of hell and Buddhist hell?
I don't think the concepts are very different — Buddhist hells are impermanent, but the time that beings spend there is so long it might seem to be eternal. Speculation is not very useful on such matters. You really don't want to go there.

Perhaps the Christian hells are full of Buddhists, while the Buddhist hells are full of Christians? :stirthepot:
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby altar » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:30 pm

There is one realm that, although not an infernal hell realm, still sounds awful, and is not comparable to the christian idea of hell, except as you might find in some old paintings.

The buddha speaks of a realm where everything seen, tasted, touched, smelled, heard, (known, is it possible?) is unpleasant, not pleasant.
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby manas » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:00 am

altar wrote:The buddha speaks of a realm where everything seen, tasted, touched, smelled, heard, (known, is it possible?) is unpleasant, not pleasant.
Hi altar,
yes that's the realm where the wardens of hell tie the man down securely, and place him in the middle of a Justin Bieber concert full of adoring, screaming fans. The atmosphere is permeated with the sound of low grade music, the sight of heaving masses of bodies throwing themselves about, the rank odour of sweat and pheromones, the taste of pepsi cola, and the sensation of wanting to throw up.
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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby Ben » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:09 am

manasikara wrote:Hi altar,
yes that's the realm where the wardens of hell tie the man down securely, and place him in the middle of a Justin Bieber concert full of adoring, screaming fans. The atmosphere is permeated with the sound of low grade music, the sight of heaving masses of bodies throwing themselves about, the rank odour of sweat and pheromones, the taste of pepsi cola, and the sensation of wanting to throw up.


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Re: Do good people go to Hell?

Postby plwk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:46 am

The buddha speaks of a realm where everything seen, tasted, touched, smelled, heard, (known, is it possible?) is unpleasant, not pleasant.
Hi altar,
yes that's the realm where the wardens of hell tie the man down securely, and place him in the middle of a Justin Bieber concert full of adoring, screaming fans. The atmosphere is permeated with the sound of low grade music, the sight of heaving masses of bodies throwing themselves about, the rank odour of sweat and pheromones, the taste of pepsi cola, and the sensation of wanting to throw up.

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Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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