- Criminal defense attorney: You're sometimes expected to be deceptive in order to help criminals go free.
- Policeman: You may be expected to kill, the same as a soldier. Also, in some countries, there's a thin line between "police" and "military" (also, if police is okay, then what about military police, like U.N. Peacekeepers?).
- Taxidermist: You don't kill animals, but you do stuff them, and they're specifically killed for your job.
- Abortion clinic worker: Pretty obvious why this one's listed.
- Marketing\Ad Agency executive: Your job involves manipulating human psychology, by appealing to base feelings like lust and greed, in order to convince people to purchase things that many of them don't want or need.
Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
-
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Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
Aside from the military, a few careers occur to me that aren't often mentioned in the context of Right Livelihood.
- Fede
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Re: Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
Then defend those whom you honestly believe to be innocent, or who convince you absolutely of their innocence.Individual wrote:Aside from the military, a few careers occur to me that aren't often mentioned in the context of Right Livelihood.
- Criminal defense attorney: You're sometimes expected to be deceptive in order to help criminals go free.
Intention is all. It's not your intention to kill, and if it bothers you, you don't have to join part of the force that would be in that position. There are always choices....[*]Policeman: You may be expected to kill, the same as a soldier. Also, in some countries, there's a thin line between "police" and "military" (also, if police is okay, then what about military police, like U.N. Peacekeepers?).
Not so. many animals used in taxidermy die of natural causes. There are not many taxidermists who will request an animal be killed for them, or will kill it on purpose. The majority of animals used in taxidermy die of illness, old age or through being killed by others.[*]Taxidermist: You don't kill animals, but you do stuff them, and they're specifically killed for your job.
Well, yes....[*]Abortion clinic worker: Pretty obvious why this one's listed.
Now I think you're stretching a point. Marketing and advertising agencies also do a lot of work for Charitable organisations, and will often waive a fee in doing so.[*]Marketing\Ad Agency executive: Your job involves manipulating human psychology, by appealing to base feelings like lust and greed, in order to convince people to purchase things that many of them don't want or need.[/list]
I think that sometimes 'beggars can't be choosers' but need to weigh up what they do and do it to the best of their ability. In a nutshell; if it feels good, do it. When in doubt - don't.What do you think of the above?
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Cittasanto
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Re: Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
Hi
I did not know that , I thought they were expected to work within the law? but yes less the less scrupulous Advocates are not includedCriminal defense attorney: You're sometimes expected to be deceptive in order to help criminals go free.
not if they are expected to kill! they are expected to prevent, and aprehend criminals, and keep the populace safe. the military police are there to do the same thing really, in accordance with the military laws, the UN peace keepers arent MP's and as far as I am aware are there to help the local populas from violent renegade armies.Policeman: You may be expected to kill, the same as a soldier. Also, in some countries, there's a thin line between "police" and "military" (also, if police is okay, then what about military police, like U.N. Peacekeepers?).
if it were solely animals which died from natural causes then not a problem, but if the animal is specifically killed then no.Taxidermist: You don't kill animals, but you do stuff them, and they're specifically killed for your job.
well it would depend, a specific clinic which specialised would be better for those who are having the procedure, but safeguards should be in place to stop un-neccesary procedures. but there are always going to be people who want the procedure and they need protecting from those who could abuse them.Abortion clinic worker: Pretty obvious why this one's listed.
Keep it honestMarketing\Ad Agency executive: Your job involves manipulating human psychology, by appealing to base feelings like lust and greed, in order to convince people to purchase things that many of them don't want or need.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
I am not in any of those fields nor am I considering any of them.Individual wrote:Aside from the military, a few careers occur to me that aren't often mentioned in the context of Right Livelihood.
What do you think of the above?
- Criminal defense attorney: You're sometimes expected to be deceptive in order to help criminals go free.
- Policeman: You may be expected to kill, the same as a soldier. Also, in some countries, there's a thin line between "police" and "military" (also, if police is okay, then what about military police, like U.N. Peacekeepers?).
- Taxidermist: You don't kill animals, but you do stuff them, and they're specifically killed for your job.
- Abortion clinic worker: Pretty obvious why this one's listed.
- Marketing\Ad Agency executive: Your job involves manipulating human psychology, by appealing to base feelings like lust and greed, in order to convince people to purchase things that many of them don't want or need.
Why should I think about them? would this be right effort?
I am of nature to decay, I have not gone beyond decay.
I am of the nature to be diseased, I have not gone beyond disease.
I am of the nature to die, I have not done beyond death.
All that is mine, dear and delightful, will change and vanish.
I am the owner of my kamma, heir to my kamma, born of my kamma, related to
my kamma, abide supported by my kamma. Whatever kamma I shall do,
whether good or evil, of that I shall be the heir.
Thus we should frequently recollect.
- Upajjhatthana Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya v.57
I am of the nature to be diseased, I have not gone beyond disease.
I am of the nature to die, I have not done beyond death.
All that is mine, dear and delightful, will change and vanish.
I am the owner of my kamma, heir to my kamma, born of my kamma, related to
my kamma, abide supported by my kamma. Whatever kamma I shall do,
whether good or evil, of that I shall be the heir.
Thus we should frequently recollect.
- Upajjhatthana Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya v.57
- Ordinaryperson
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Re: Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
I have been contemplating about Right Livelihood for a while now and I end up deciding that I want to become a Barista by making good honest coffee drinks. Money is not that good but I guess I can earn a living out of it if I do it properly. For 3 months now I have tried to learn as much as I can and I hope in one year time I will be ready to open my small coffee shop ... with some cakes and perhaps some other beverages. No alcohol by the way. I might do some meat pie as well if I can buy them from butcher but the meat will not come from animal intentionally killed for me as I will not accept that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
~Actively trying to destroy the Three Unwholesome Roots of Greed, Hatred and Ignorance~
~ Greed is the greatest danger of them all ~
~Actively trying to destroy the Three Unwholesome Roots of Greed, Hatred and Ignorance~
~ Greed is the greatest danger of them all ~
- appicchato
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Re: Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
Wishing you success in your endeavors Ordinary...Ordinaryperson wrote:I have been contemplating about Right Livelihood for a while now and I end up deciding that I want to become a Barista by making good honest coffee drinks. Money is not that good but I guess I can earn a living out of it if I do it properly. For 3 months now I have tried to learn as much as I can and I hope in one year time I will be ready to open my small coffee shop ... with some cakes and perhaps some other beverages. No alcohol by the way. I might do some meat pie as well if I can buy them from butcher but the meat will not come from animal intentionally killed for me as I will not accept that.
Not to beat this dead horse anymore than it has been, but...all meat sold commercially, whether it's from the store or a butcher, is intentionally killed for you (meaning anyone who will buy it)...
Be well...
Re: Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
Hello all,
Just a further comment on Ven. Appicchato's post:
What the Buddha Said About Eating Meat
Ajahn Brahmavamso
............. EXCERPT............
However there are some meats which are specifically prohibited for monks to eat: human meat, for obvious reasons; meat from elephants and horses as these were then considered royal animals; dog meat - as this was considered by ordinary people to be disgusting; and meat from snakes, lions, tigers, panthers, bears and hyenas - because one who had just eaten the flesh of such dangerous jungle animals was thought to give forth such a smell as to draw forth revenge from the same species!
Towards the end of the Buddha's life, his cousin Devadatta attempted to usurp the leadership of the Order of monks. In order to win support from other monks, Devadatta tried to be more strict than the Buddha and show Him up as indulgent. Devadatta proposed to the Buddha that all the monks should henceforth be vegetarians. The Buddha refused and repeated once again the regulation that he had established years before, that monks and nuns may eat fish or meat as long as it is not from an animal whose meat is specifically forbidden, and as long as they had no reason to believe that the animal was slaughtered specifically for them.
The Vinaya, then, is quite clear on this matter. Monks and nuns may eat meat. Even the Buddha ate meat. Unfortunately, meat eating is often seen by westerners as an indulgence on the part of the monks. Nothing could be further from the truth - I was a strict vegetarian for three years before I became a monk. In my first years as a monk in North-East Thailand, when I bravely faced many a meal of sticky rice and boiled frog (the whole body bones and all), or rubbery snails, red-ant curry or fried grasshoppers - I would have given ANYTHING to be a vegetarian again! On my first Christmas in N.E. Thailand an American came to visit the monastery a week or so before the 25th. It seemed too good to be true, he had a turkey farm and yes, he quickly understood how we lived and promised us a turkey for Christmas. He said that he would choose a nice fat one especially for us... and my heart sank. We cannot accept meat knowing it was killed especially for monks. We refused his offer. So I had to settle for part of the villager's meal - frogs again.
Monks may not exercise choice when it comes to food and that is much harder than being a vegetarian. Nonetheless, we may encourage vegetarianism and if our lay supporters brought only vegetarian food and no meat, well... monks may not complain either!
May you take the hint and be kind to animals.
References:
[1] Book of the Discipline, Vol. 4, p. 324
[2] ibid, p. 325
Ajahn Brahmavamso - http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/meat.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
Just a further comment on Ven. Appicchato's post:
What the Buddha Said About Eating Meat
Ajahn Brahmavamso
............. EXCERPT............
However there are some meats which are specifically prohibited for monks to eat: human meat, for obvious reasons; meat from elephants and horses as these were then considered royal animals; dog meat - as this was considered by ordinary people to be disgusting; and meat from snakes, lions, tigers, panthers, bears and hyenas - because one who had just eaten the flesh of such dangerous jungle animals was thought to give forth such a smell as to draw forth revenge from the same species!
Towards the end of the Buddha's life, his cousin Devadatta attempted to usurp the leadership of the Order of monks. In order to win support from other monks, Devadatta tried to be more strict than the Buddha and show Him up as indulgent. Devadatta proposed to the Buddha that all the monks should henceforth be vegetarians. The Buddha refused and repeated once again the regulation that he had established years before, that monks and nuns may eat fish or meat as long as it is not from an animal whose meat is specifically forbidden, and as long as they had no reason to believe that the animal was slaughtered specifically for them.
The Vinaya, then, is quite clear on this matter. Monks and nuns may eat meat. Even the Buddha ate meat. Unfortunately, meat eating is often seen by westerners as an indulgence on the part of the monks. Nothing could be further from the truth - I was a strict vegetarian for three years before I became a monk. In my first years as a monk in North-East Thailand, when I bravely faced many a meal of sticky rice and boiled frog (the whole body bones and all), or rubbery snails, red-ant curry or fried grasshoppers - I would have given ANYTHING to be a vegetarian again! On my first Christmas in N.E. Thailand an American came to visit the monastery a week or so before the 25th. It seemed too good to be true, he had a turkey farm and yes, he quickly understood how we lived and promised us a turkey for Christmas. He said that he would choose a nice fat one especially for us... and my heart sank. We cannot accept meat knowing it was killed especially for monks. We refused his offer. So I had to settle for part of the villager's meal - frogs again.
Monks may not exercise choice when it comes to food and that is much harder than being a vegetarian. Nonetheless, we may encourage vegetarianism and if our lay supporters brought only vegetarian food and no meat, well... monks may not complain either!
May you take the hint and be kind to animals.
References:
[1] Book of the Discipline, Vol. 4, p. 324
[2] ibid, p. 325
Ajahn Brahmavamso - http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/meat.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- appicchato
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Re: Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
This thread has veered off the original topic...but to comment on Chris's post and the Ajahn Brahm snippet...I'm a monk, and I'm a vegetarian too...my understanding of this deal is that I don't HAVE to eat everything that's offered to me...if I eat nothing but rice and fruit, so be it...nothing but rice, so be it...if someone can point out where it says that I do (have to), please show me...and maybe I'll have to rethink my position (twenty years down the pike)...I go to the same homes everyday on pindabaht, and the people don't know that I'm a vegetarian, and, of course, they give me portions of meat...I give these to the other monks, nuns, and lay people in my wat...why don't I tell them that I am (vegetarian)?...I can't, that would be showing preference...Chris wrote:Monks may not exercise choice when it comes to food and that is much harder than being a vegetarian
Re: Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
That's very interesting Ven. Appicchato as I gave up attempting to be a strict vegan the last time I trained for entering the Sangha and have simply put up with 'whatever' since then. I kind of considered the frog/ant/grasshopper diet I would be facing in NE Thailand as another challenge to attempt to meet with equanimity but if you think a return to a vegitarian practice would be tolerated I would very much like to attempt that again. I don't think I want to inconvenience anyone or cause any controversy but if others are interested in my meaty bits I will happily pass them on and stick to the rice, fruit and veg bits.
Thanks for the tip!
Thanks for the tip!
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
Why always focus on the negative? Instead of discussing what is a wrong livelihood for a Buddhist to follow, how about thinking of livelihoods that would allow you to make good kamma most of the time?
1. Some kind of doctor, care assistant, dentist, or physiotherapist
2. A taxi driver, bus driver, or train driver
3. A cook in a vegetarian restaurant.
4. A lifegaurd at the beach or swimming pool
5. A teacher, social worker, or accountant, etc.
There are so many possibilities. Tradesmen such as carpenters, plumbers, electricians, engineers, etc., follow an honest livelihood that causes harm to no one, and gives happiness and comfort to many. All living beings need the four requisites: food, clothing, medicine, and a dwelling.
1. Some kind of doctor, care assistant, dentist, or physiotherapist
2. A taxi driver, bus driver, or train driver
3. A cook in a vegetarian restaurant.
4. A lifegaurd at the beach or swimming pool
5. A teacher, social worker, or accountant, etc.
There are so many possibilities. Tradesmen such as carpenters, plumbers, electricians, engineers, etc., follow an honest livelihood that causes harm to no one, and gives happiness and comfort to many. All living beings need the four requisites: food, clothing, medicine, and a dwelling.
Blog • Pāli Fonts • In This Very Life • Buddhist Chronicles • Software (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
- pink_trike
- Posts: 1130
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
- Contact:
Re: Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
I think that parsing "right" and "wrong" into rules for everyone in every circumstance misses the whole point of the Dharma. The truth always lies in the middle.Individual wrote:Aside from the military, a few careers occur to me that aren't often mentioned in the context of Right Livelihood.
What do you think of the above?
- Criminal defense attorney: You're sometimes expected to be deceptive in order to help criminals go free.
- Policeman: You may be expected to kill, the same as a soldier. Also, in some countries, there's a thin line between "police" and "military" (also, if police is okay, then what about military police, like U.N. Peacekeepers?).
- Taxidermist: You don't kill animals, but you do stuff them, and they're specifically killed for your job.
- Abortion clinic worker: Pretty obvious why this one's listed.
- Marketing\Ad Agency executive: Your job involves manipulating human psychology, by appealing to base feelings like lust and greed, in order to convince people to purchase things that many of them don't want or need.
Last edited by pink_trike on Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: Right Livelihood: Other certain careers.
Hello all,
You may find this discussion interesting. Patrick Kearney is one of my teachers.
Encounter ~ Right Livelihood (audio or script) Discussion:
This week we're looking at work: what we like about it, what we don't and how people are employing Buddhist ethics and practices in their workplaces to make it more satisfying.
We find out how a butcher, a nurse, a monk, those working in the corporate world and prostitutes incorporate what the Buddha taught about "Right Livelihood".
And we learn how to stop our aversion to household chores by re-educating the heart.
Guests
Patrick Kearney
Lay Theravada Buddhist teacher
Blue Mountains NSW
Clark Ratliffe
Zen practitioner
Professor of Nursing
University of Hawaii
Venerable Khemavaro
Monk
Wat Buddha Dhamma
Theravada Forest Monastery & Retreat Centre
Two & half hours drive north west of Sydney
Roberta Perkins
Retired academic & author
Research into sex work
Ruth Ostrow
Journalist, "Business Life"
The Australian newspaper
Author, lifestyle coach
Lianna
nurse
Michael
butcher,
Chinatown Sydney
Emily, Jesse, Drew
Comments about work in a shopping mall
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/encounter/stor ... 432214.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
You may find this discussion interesting. Patrick Kearney is one of my teachers.
Encounter ~ Right Livelihood (audio or script) Discussion:
This week we're looking at work: what we like about it, what we don't and how people are employing Buddhist ethics and practices in their workplaces to make it more satisfying.
We find out how a butcher, a nurse, a monk, those working in the corporate world and prostitutes incorporate what the Buddha taught about "Right Livelihood".
And we learn how to stop our aversion to household chores by re-educating the heart.
Guests
Patrick Kearney
Lay Theravada Buddhist teacher
Blue Mountains NSW
Clark Ratliffe
Zen practitioner
Professor of Nursing
University of Hawaii
Venerable Khemavaro
Monk
Wat Buddha Dhamma
Theravada Forest Monastery & Retreat Centre
Two & half hours drive north west of Sydney
Roberta Perkins
Retired academic & author
Research into sex work
Ruth Ostrow
Journalist, "Business Life"
The Australian newspaper
Author, lifestyle coach
Lianna
nurse
Michael
butcher,
Chinatown Sydney
Emily, Jesse, Drew
Comments about work in a shopping mall
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/encounter/stor ... 432214.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---