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the great rebirth debate - Page 115 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:23 pm

Hello Lazy_Eye,

I personally do not find child-prodigies to be convincing proof. They may have been born with a brain that was wired in such a way that produced such talent.

However, what about occasions when a little child described his/her past life and circumstances (that could not have been known by the child in this life) and it was verified to be true by researchers such as Ian Stevenson?

Kusala's post
. In 1936 a very interesting case was thoroughly investigated and reported by the government authorities in India. A girl (Shanti Devi from Deli) could accurately describe her previous life (at Muttra, five hundred miles from Deli) which ended about a year before her 'second birth'. She gave the name of her husband and child and described her home and life history. The investigating commission brought her to her former relatives, who verified all her statements.
posting.php?mode=quote&f=16&p=142671#pr142621
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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ancientbuddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby ancientbuddhism » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:50 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:59 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:22 pm


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cooran
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby cooran » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:50 pm

What would be the point of the Buddha's teachings on Kamma without the 'flux of becoming' continuing on until eradication of defilements and attainment of Nibbana?

Maintaining that there is no llife to life rebirth reduces the Buddha's teachings to just another list of ethics.
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby santa100 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:52 pm

If there's no rebirth, the concept of Kamma wouldn't even hold. We'd probably all agree that to be born as a child prodigy, whether with exceptional intelligence, exceptional musical talent, exceptional whatever...this is due to good kamma. If there's no rebirth, then when was this good kamma created? Obviously it cannot be during the child's current life time for he/she's just been born! It has to be created BEFORE that. If we deny this "BEFORE that" thingy, that means the child's exceptional IQ must either be a gift from God or just some kind of coincidence by chance, not the work of Kamma!

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:14 pm

Santa100,

You are right. I would also like to add this. If there was no rebirth (ponobhavika) after the death of the body, this would mean that all kamma made would not produce any kind of result (vipāka). So, "one life only" would deny the efficacy of kammavipāka beyond one life. And if one did kamma split second before dying, then it might not have chance to ever ripen if there is only one life. So this implies nihilism (natthikadiṭṭhi a heretical view) beyond death. Furthermore, if we are all liberated from samsara when death (first and last) occurs, then why bother with N8P? Anyone (Buddhist or non-Buddhist. Siddhartha Gotama or Adolf Hitler) would attain parinibbāna simply due to death (if it was final and there were no rebirth). So purification through dying, regardless of what was done. This is another heretical view (purification through wondering on).


One life only is a view of Ajita Kesakambalin:
A person is a composite of four primary elements. At death, the earth (in the body) returns to and merges with the (external) earth-substance. The fire returns to and merges with the external fire-substance. The liquid returns to and merges with the external liquid-substance. The wind returns to and merges with the external wind-substance. The sense-faculties scatter into space. Four men, with the bier as the fifth, carry the corpse. Its eulogies are sounded only as far as the charnel ground. The bones turn pigeon-colored. The offerings end in ashes. Generosity is taught by idiots. The words of those who speak of existence after death are false, empty chatter. With the break-up of the body, the wise and the foolish alike are annihilated, destroyed. They do not exist after death.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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rowboat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby rowboat » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:25 pm

There's the Pali word similar to pari-something-citta for the citta at the moment or just after the death of the body, heard in one of Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's lectures.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:29 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:45 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:00 pm

Hello Retro,

While the Buddha used language(s) of that time, including certain concepts, He did not base His teaching on what He merely heard.

In MN130 the Buddha clearly states that when it comes to Hell, it was known and seen by Him. He did NOT borrow the idea of Hell because some people in His culture believed in it. And if He had to borrow some ideas popular in His time, why didn't He borrow materialistic ideas (especially regarding rebirth) such as those taught by Ajita Kesakambalin? Buddha would definitely be popular today in the West if He would have borrowed them.

I find it very sad to accept the idea that Buddha would use popular concepts that He knew were false to get more people join the teaching. I also seriously doubt that we need to twist His words in such a flexible way that to make the sutta mean exact opposite of what it clearly states.


Buddha clearly has said that this view ("no rebirth after death") is false:
A person is a composite of four primary elements. At death, the earth (in the body) returns to and merges with the (external) earth-substance. The fire returns to and merges with the external fire-substance. The liquid returns to and merges with the external liquid-substance. The wind returns to and merges with the external wind-substance. The sense-faculties scatter into space. Four men, with the bier as the fifth, carry the corpse. Its eulogies are sounded only as far as the charnel ground. The bones turn pigeon-colored. The offerings end in ashes. Generosity is taught by idiots. The words of those who speak of existence after death are false, empty chatter. With the break-up of the body, the wise and the foolish alike are annihilated, destroyed. They do not exist after death.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Ananda has said a good rebuke to this idea.
Sandaka a wise man reflects, this good teacher upholds this view and declares. There are no results for gifts-re--and there is nothing after death. If the words of these teachers are true, I should not do anything. I should not live the holy life. After death my teacher and I become equal in our recluseship. I who do not even believe it. We both get anihilated and destroyed after death. Unnecessarily these good teachers went naked and wore a knot on the head, did austerities yoked to standing and pulling out hairs of the head and beard. As for me, I lived surrounded by wife and children, enjoyed wearing Kashmire clothes, bearing flowers and scents, and earning gold and silver. I become equal with these good teachers after death. Knowing what and seeing what should I lead the holy life under these teachers. He knowing this is not a holy life turns away from it. Sandaka, this is the first holy life the Blessed One who knows and sees, is perfect and rightfully enlightened has declared should not be lived, which the wise man if possible does not live, and even if he lives is not convinced that it is merit. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ka-e1.html



And I strongly disapprove of the potential idea that he taught Rebirth and value of generosity in order for the monks to be fed by laity.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

plwk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby plwk » Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:34 am


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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:11 am


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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:29 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Lazy_eye
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:10 pm

Last edited by Lazy_eye on Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.

santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby santa100 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:08 pm


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ancientbuddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:10 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:30 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:36 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/


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