Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:45 pm

Sadhu!
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-Dhp. 183

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:47 pm

darods wrote:
I causes me sadness to think of people who fall into a situation whereby they consider themselves to achieved something and in doing so distract themselves from continued striving. I hope they get back on track!


Hi Dardos,

Certainly we all will benefit from more right effort. It is my opinion that what you are concerned about is a ubiquitous distraction throughout the field of spiritual practice. I am not a fan of Ingram and have not read his work other than a few excerpts. However it seems in your post that you have in some way benefited from your exposure to him. I think we should always be reassessing our approach to practice in the light of a perfect goal. To whatever degree that we diminish our perception of the loftiness of the goal I think we will also undermine our ability to strive. Even so, I think our practice of right effort must include a consistent awareness (at least intuitively) of how this imperfect manifestation of will (thats us) can move towards and support the arising of that perfection in real time right now. It seems Ingram is trying to put practitioners into this kind of relationship with the goal however misguided. My opinion is that there is probably enough Dhamma being expressed that people under his influence can continue to reassess their approach effectively enough to continue developing. I could be wrong so lets all continue to engage with a kind hearted but uncompromising critique of what the Dhamma is so that we can all understand it more deeply.


Metta

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"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gnulnx » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:07 pm

Will my comment add to the peace or decrease the peace?

I debated this for a while before I decided to register and then respond.
Ultimately I decided to post not because I have special insight into what
Ingram is or is not. I decided to post because I think this thread appears to
provide an open book to the thoughts of many of the posters.

In short this thread makes me sad. The delusion and dogma appear to be quite steep
with some members. Is this a Buddhist forum were the members make constant strides to
be aware of every passing thought or is this a random religious forum focused on dogmatic
detail to scripture? Is Ingrams book any more contradictory than the whole of Zen?

Can any of you honestly find fault with Ingrams teaching on meditation?
His chapter on correct meditation are about as concise and accurate as any I've as of yet found.
Is it possible that the only real issue you have with him is a claim he made?
Claiming something that a part of you obviously considers taboo?
Ponder this in it's entirety. Don't focus on whether he is an Arahat or not.
Focus on that part of you that is reacting to some part of Ingram?
What is it about him that causes your mind to push back in such away?

Lastly, what would you require of a person as proof of their enlightenment?
Are you sure it's even possible for a human to meet that definition?

When the student is ready the teacher will appear.
I appears that often times we become so focused on the inaccuracies of another
persons teaching that we fail to realize the real lesson was to found in the observation of our own aversion.

Peace.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:31 pm

gnulnx wrote: I think this thread appears to
provide an open book to the thoughts of many of the posters.



I have to agree with you there. This thread has provided an on and off bit of amusmement to me every time it pops up in the active topics. A lot of people seem to interested in judging others. Just human nature i guess. Doesnt "mind your own business and dont be judgemental" appear anywhere in the scriptures? Anybody got a cite for that?
"Even if you've read the whole Canon and can remember lots of teachings; even if you can explain them in poignant ways, with lots of people to respect you; even if you build a lot of monastery buildings, or can explain inconstancy, stress, and not-self in the most detailed fashion ... The only thing that serves your own true purpose is release from suffering.

"And you'll be able to gain release from suffering only when you know the one mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby cooran » Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:52 pm

Hello Morlock,

One reference:

‘’Therefore, Ananda, you should not be a hasty critic of people, should not lightly pass judgement on people. One who passes judgement on people harms himself. I alone, Ananda, or one like me, can judge people.’’
………
‘’Such judgement, indeed, will for a long time cause harm and suffering to those critics.’’

From AN 6.44

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:51 pm

cooran wrote:‘’Therefore, Ananda, you should not be a hasty critic of people, should not lightly pass judgement on people. One who passes judgement on people harms himself. I alone, Ananda, or one like me, can judge people.’’
………
‘’Such judgement, indeed, will for a long time cause harm and suffering to those critics.’’

From AN 6.44


Good quotes. Also this famous one:

"Let not one look to the faults of others, to what they have done or failed to do. Rather, look to what you have done or failed to do." (Dhp.50)

But on the other hand . . .

The Buddha did specify rules for monks and nuns to follow and precepts for lay people to follow and they were rebuked and removed from the robes for certain offenses. He also set up the Great Standards for judging what is Dhamma and what is not. (Vinaya, Mv.VI. 40)

It is true that the Buddha never slandered or abused anyone. He was completely free from jealousy and ill-will. However, he certainly did say some things that were displeasing to others. When he started teaching the Dhamma, the Brahmins were well-established as the “Church” of the day. They held that the Brahmins or priests were a superior caste to workers, farmers, merchants, and nobles. The Buddha ridiculed them in many ways, both in private with his loyal disciples and in public when non-believers were present. They lost most of their support, and conspired to discredit the Buddha by hiring a prostitute to pretend she had had an affair with him, then hiring some thugs to murder her.

The Buddha also criticised evil-doers among his own followers and constantly admonished his loyal disciples not to be heedless. He said, “Ānanda, I will not treat you [gently] as a potter treats an unbaked pot. I will instruct and admonish you repeatedly [robustly if necessary]. The sound core will stand the test.”
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:53 am

So, taking exception to Ingram's claims and teachings as they seriously deviate from the teachings of the suttas and the tradition is an inappropriate act of judgment?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:44 am

gnulnx wrote: Will my comment add to the peace or decrease the peace?
Given the rather unskilful approach taken here, your comments probably do not help.

I decided to post because I think this thread appears to
provide an open book to the thoughts of many of the posters.
In short this thread makes me sad. The delusion and dogma appear to be quite steep with some members. Is this a Buddhist forum were the members make constant strides to be aware of every passing thought or is this a random religious forum focused on dogmatic detail to scripture? Is Ingrams book any more contradictory than the whole of Zen?
First of all, Zen has nothing to do with the issue at hand, but if someone grossly misrepresented Zen, is it delusion and dogmatic to offer a critique of the misrepresentation? So if someone is critical analysis of Ingram’s claims, claims which run counter to the very core texts of the tradition of this forum, then offering a critique is to be delusional and dogmatic, so it seems. Now, that characterization could, with equal justification, be seen as equally problematic as the critique of Ingram’s claims.

Also, what is being stated by gnulnx, so it seems, is that offering a critique of Ingram’s claim means that those making the critique are not good Buddhists, that they are not really doing the practice, but are, rather, just deluded and dogmatic. I wonder how that adds to the peace?

Can any of you honestly find fault with Ingrams teaching on meditation? His chapter on correct meditation are about as concise and accurate as any I've as of yet found.
That is your opinion; however, the question is taking the whole picture of what Ingram is offering into consideration; there are better options.

Is it possible that the only real issue you have with him is a claim he made? Claiming something that a part of you obviously considers taboo? Ponder this in it's entirety. Don't focus on whether he is an Arahat or not. Focus on that part of you that is reacting to some part of Ingram? What is it about him that causes your mind to push back in such away?
So, in other words, if a person has a problem with Ingram, the problem is with that person, not the fact that Ingram has distorted the Buddha’s teachings and that Ingram's claims of being an arahant run counter to the words of the Buddha.

This is an interesting form of an ad hominem: you disagree with Ingram because something is wrong with you. Not really a very helpful response.

Lastly, what would you require of a person as proof of their enlightenment? Are you sure it's even possible for a human to meet that definition?
Then why would Ingram make such a claim about himself? Since he has, all by himself, put that claim out there, it is open for discussion (why wouldn’t it be?), and since he is using a Buddhist category –arahant – in his claim of “enlightenment” that is also not at all unreasonably open for discussion. And disagreeing with Ingram does not all by itself mean that whomever disagrees with his claim is delusional or dogmatic. There is no justification for such a claim as that.

I[sic] appears that often times we become so focused on the inaccuracies of another persons teaching that we fail to realize the real lesson was to found in the observation of our own aversion.
Looking at the failure of another’s teaching does mean that those who are doing the looking are full of aversion. It might mean quite the contrary – a very deep concern for the welfare of others and wanting the Dhamma to be carefully and skilfully presented in a way that does not bring shame to it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Ben » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:42 am

Well said, Tilt!
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

Sayagyi U Ba Khin


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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:26 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Looking at the failure of another’s teaching doesn't mean that those who are doing the looking are full of aversion. It might mean quite the contrary – a very deep concern for the welfare of others and wanting the Dhamma to be carefully and skilfully presented in a way that does not bring shame to it.


:thumbsup: Yes, well said.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Jaidyn » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:25 pm

Interesting, but is he trying too much to be "hardcore"? Loses my respect if I am to judge by written words.

Oh, yes, a brief warning. I should mention that I am hardcore, into hardcore practice, into very hard-hitting dharma, and sometimes I let it out with both barrels. [...] I expect people to be self-reliant to a high degree, and projections both negative and positive tend to piss me off. I probably should be more understanding, but clearly at times am not. If it happens with you and you are sure nothing good came of it, my apologies, but at least you were warned.

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/contact.shtml

(text made bold & red by me)

The last time I heard the words "piss me off" was when Gordon Ramsay used them.

Maybe he is trying cerate trust by acting in opposition to the stereotype of the arahat (as we all know stereotypes tend to be wrong to a significant degree), but I think he is failing here, and it seems more like a cheap trick.

Hmmm, I suddenly lost my interest in Ingram. I was about to skim his book.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby bluebuddha » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:48 pm

I was looking around at several forums to find out more information about Daniel Ingrams book "Mastering The Core Teachings of The Buddha" and see what others had to say about Mr Ingram and his book.

Looks like I came to the right place.

I am glad to read what other people have to say about all this.

I wont pass judgement on Mr Ingram or his book or judge what others have to say either.

But I am happy to read all the comments.

I do want to say "Thank You" to all those who have posted to this thread, for I have found it "enlightening"

Thanks also to the Dhamma Wheel forum for having the courage to let this thread take its course.
The non-doing of any evil,
the performance of what's skillful,
the cleansing of one's own mind:
this is the teaching of the Awakened.
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