the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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the great rebirth debate

Post by santa100 »

Kaiel wrote:
1. I've seen it said rebirth is not literal, that we go through rebirth every moment based on our karma from the last. My take here is the wise Siddhartha would of used simpler language, like you actions yesterday effect who you are and your well being today. Terms like deva and asura and hungry ghosts used for nothing more than describing a mental state seems like metaphorical overkill.
3. I've also seen it said there is no soul, but a subtle self, or luminous mind, or mind stream. Now to me this sounds like a soul,many religions have different takes on what a soul is, but the gist of it is a part of you that continues on after. The Tibetans go on to describe the actual events while Inbetween lives, how is this anatta, yet I would expect these monks who should be well versed in Buddhas teachings
For item 1., notice that moment-to-moment rebirth and literal rebirth don't have to be 2 mutually exclusive concepts. Both are well supported on logical ground and references from the Buddhist Canon. If you haven't been to a Buddhist temple, I'd recommend you pay a visit and have some friendly chat with the monks there to get more insight into this important concept.

For item 3., notice Buddhism doesn't deny a conventional, temporarily labeled "self". We still recognize a Mr. Kaiel who raises good questions about Buddhism. But it stops there, this conventional self is not permament, composed of many many constituents, and most important of all: being subjected to sufferings like aging, sickness, lamentation, stress, death, etc. The "self" is just a label like a "car" is a label temporarily assigned to a structure with 4 wheels, engine, electrical systems, frame,etc. The "self" is not "real" because it constantly changes. Your body cells constantly die off and being replaced with new ones. So technically speaking, Mr. Kaiel 5 minutes ago is not the same as Mr. Kaiel now. Most of his cells already been replaced and he gets slightly older 5 minutes later. So, if there's a real, absolute, and immutable "self" to be defined, where do you find it? Which Kaiel out of the hundreds or thoudsands of "Kaiel instances" is the "real" Kaiel? Same logic can be deduced for the "soul". When a husband loses his temper and acts like a lunatic, his wife would say "you are not yourself anymore". If he has a real and immutable "soul", which one is it? The calm version, the wrathful version? So, afterall, what got carried over to one's next life? That which is "the gist of a part of you that continues on after"? Kamma!

As Chownah mentioned, keep on learning more about Buddhism (ref: http://www.accesstoinsight.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), practice meditation, spend more time with it, and you'll be able to find out more answers for yourself. Good luck..
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Dhammakid
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the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammakid »

I highly encourage you to check out the many great articles on the concept of anatta and rebirth found on Access to Insight. Once you receive a proper understanding on the two concepts, you will wonder how anyone can consciously believe in this fleeting, ever-changing self. It will be a mind-altering experience.
kaiel
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the great rebirth debate

Post by kaiel »

Fir off thank you all kindly for your time, I truly appreciate it. To what Santa109 said, I understand the car metaphor, I grasp that I am in constant flux, but could not a soul be in constant flux as well, it is not permenent in the sense of a solid unchanging stone, but it simply outlasts the physical. My example would be particle physics, assuming string theory to be correct, an electron is always in flux, changing position, spin etc.. however underneath that electron is just a 1dimensional string vibrating at a specific frequency. My issue here is if I simply live and die, and that's it what is the point of reaching enlightenment, why not spend time writing books or painting to be remembered, worse yet from a lesser persons point of view start wars, kill, rob, etc...

If my karma is simply a bank account for something to inherit, why should I be concerned.

I understand these questions may seem silly or even utterly nonsensical to one who is a true follower but I have them none the less. I will read the link suggested and would also like to find a mahayana forum to posit the same question to if anyone knows such a site.

Last question, in your sects view, is the Buddha still in existence in so,e higher realm, or is he gone,
kaiel
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the great rebirth debate

Post by kaiel »

Did some reading on the suggested site
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... self2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I understand here that Buddha really never gave an answer here, I see why

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el414.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wow, we got 31 realms, a sage sad because he knows he will be reborn in the formless realm where he can't reach enlightenment prior to sidhartha becoming Buddha. Point is this article certainly seems to favor some sort of mind stream, soul

I will continue on reading,

P.S. any good references on how to begin meditating, my mind is always so active I've yet to quiet it more than 15 seconds
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Tex
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the great rebirth debate

Post by Tex »

P.S. any good references on how to begin meditating, my mind is always so active I've yet to quiet it more than 15 seconds
This is an excellent book for a beginning meditator:

http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Plain ... 0861713214" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
santa100
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the great rebirth debate

Post by santa100 »

Kaiel wrote:
My issue here is if I simply live and die, and that's it what is the point of reaching enlightenment, why not spend time writing books or painting to be remembered, worse yet from a lesser persons point of view start wars, kill, rob, etc...
If my karma is simply a bank account for something to inherit, why should I be concerned.
Vibrating string would be a good analogy for Kamma. Depending on the frequency, it could manifest in so many different sizes, shapes, forms, and states, wholesome or unwholsome.
Even if we temporarily set aside the concept of self/no-self, sould/no-soul, the fact remains: suffering exists. Mr. Kaiel inherits both wholesome and unwholesome Kamma that Mr. John Doe created in a previous life. Similarly, Mr. Kaiel will generate some new Kamma (hopefully a lot more wholesome :smile: )for Ms. Jane Roe for her next existence. As long as you 3 people still stuck in the viscous realm of Samsara, your sufferings will be just as "real" as anything you see under the sun regardless of whether you "three" are really "one" or not. So, out of compassion for this temporary "self", and out of compassion for many others, one should really live and practice in accordance with the Path..That's the only way to final Nibbana, the end of all sufferings..

Try this Thread for some info. on meditation. Good luck..
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4056" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nicro
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the great rebirth debate

Post by Nicro »

I will have a go at answering these. Look at the bold.

kaiel wrote:
1. I've seen it said rebirth is not literal, that we go through rebirth every moment based on our karma from the last. My take here is the wise Siddhartha would of used simpler language, like you actions yesterday effect who you are and your well being today. Terms like deva and asura and hungry ghosts used for nothing more than describing a mental state seems like metaphorical overkill.

As said before there is both moment to moment rebirth and literal rebirth. And in the Dhammapada he said exactly the part I italicized above I believe.


2. I've seen it said not even to bother thinking about it, to do so locks me further in samsara, well to that I reply I fully expect to be in samsara for a while, I'm okay with a slow crawl to enlightenment so yes I want to think about it.

I have never heard this. The closest thing I have heard to an answer like that is "even if you don't believe in rebirth you should still take the actions that would lead to a good rebirth. Doing kind, and wholesome acts leads to happiness in this life and if you are reborn, you will have a better life there.


3. I've also seen it said there is no soul, but a subtle self, or luminous mind, or mind stream. Now to me this sounds like a soul,many religions have different takes on what a soul is, but the gist of it is a part of you that continues on after. The Tibetans go on to describe the actual events while Inbetween lives, how is this anatta, yet I would expect these monks who should be well versed in Buddhas teachings

"Mind Stream" doesn't equate to a soul though. "Mind Stream" would be basically your stream of thoughts. For example, you are driving to work feeling fine, then someone cuts you off. You become angry and mad. You weren't angry just 20 seconds ago, but now you are in a whole new state. You only view yourself as being the "same" because your mind connects these different states together like passing off a baton. You view yourself as the baton race, the whole interconnected series of different states, instead of seeing your life moment by moment.


4. Lastly I have sadly seen posts here where one wiser than thou type simply states its too complex for the op to understand , that they , or me, do not grasp Siddharthas teachings, to me this type of response is no different than pushy Christian types exclaiming its in the bible so its true whether you like it or not.

That is not a good thing to do. But I will urge you to practice meditation, as many of these topic become clearer and easier to understand if you undertake the investigation of your mind up yourself.

So to reiterate if me...kaiel does not continue after death, and lets face it I am not going to be the next Buddha in 40 more years of life, why follow the path, surely there are other philosophies that one can follow to just make ones life a more productive one, or is there some sort of essence , mind stream, Jedi force, that continues.

That would be your Kamma. Think again of the baton race. Your Kamma is the baton. The runners are your different states, your kamma continues to build as you go through the different states, becoming dirty while in the hands of a filthy runner(think nasty states and actions) or get a little cleaner when its grabbed by a runner who just happens to have some Sani-wipes on him(good states and actions). The whole goal of the race is to "win", just like people try to do in life(have a good job, nice house and car, lots of money etc..) Only the race never ends, so no matter what you end up suffering because you never reach your goal. Once you realize this you stop running and drop the baton.

Again, take up meditation and investigate yourself. Take a look at this to learn Vipasanna:

http://www.vipassanadhura.com/howto.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And these youtube videos aswell for Vipassana:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLvU7ppM ... B03E12F5A1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Alex123
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the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Kaiel,
kaiel wrote: To what Santa109 said, I understand the car metaphor, I grasp that I am in constant flux, but could not a soul be in constant flux as well, it is not permenent in the sense of a solid unchanging stone, but it simply outlasts the physical.
What we call "a person" is a process of mental and physical events. Every moment is a new moment that is conditioned by the previous moments.
kaiel wrote:
If my karma is simply a bank account for something to inherit, why should I be concerned.
Five year old "Andrew" is not totally the same as 25 year old "Andrew" 20 years later, but not totally different either. If five year old Andrew looses an arm, for example, after 20 years, that Andrew (who is now 25 years old) will still feel the consequences of that event. Even though every cell in the body, and mental states can be different, still actions bring results, and it does matter for 25 year old what "that" 5 year old did. In dream you may forget your personality, languages that you may know, waking memories, etc. But you still feel "I am" and scary or pleasurable events in the dream still matter even though your identity is temporarily different.

Same with good/bad kamma and rebirth. As I understand it, what passes is the deluded sense of "I Am" plus all the kamma and un-eradicated tendencies. Just like you can feel pain or pleasure now (and be totally oblivious to whom you were in distant past), same will be in the future, unless you achieve parinibbāna. Rebirth is like falling into another dream, except that you don't wake up into previous "waking personality" and you can still feel 5 sense objects.


IMHO,


Alex
kaiel
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the great rebirth debate

Post by kaiel »

it seems there is as much disagreement between the schools of Buddhism as there is between us Catholics and Christians. Allegorical interpretation versus Literal, different Suttas in different sects. Found this article which uses strong language against Theravada's idea of anatta http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive ... 00018.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, I do not like how they approach their arguments as they are certainly not using kind language


It seems I should just do what has been suggested here and learn to meditate and find the answer myself, I do believe Buddhism to possibly be closer to the truth than any other religion.

Thanks for the book suggestion Tex, already ordered it
daverupa
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the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

kaiel wrote:Found this article...
An opaque and sesquipedalian wall of text with no discernible thesis. :roll:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
kaiel wrote:Found this article...
An opaque and sesquipedalian wall of text with no discernible thesis. :roll:
Now, you are being poilite. This thing was written by " ancientbuddhism" aka Attasarana, Shakya Aryanatta, and Ken Wheeler (among other such handles), self proclaimed "buddhologist" and one time self proclaimed monk, who writes stuff like this.

As an aside, I don't think that that the "ancientbuddhism" that wrote the above linked garbage is the same "ancientbuddhism" that posts here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

kaiel wrote:it seems there is as much disagreement between the schools of Buddhism as there is between us Catholics and Christians. Allegorical interpretation versus Literal, different Suttas in different sects. Found this article which uses strong language against Theravada's idea of anatta http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive ... 00018.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, I do not like how they approach their arguments as they are certainly not using kind language
This hardly represents anything other than a singular individual's warped point of view, which hardly warrants the statement you just made.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

kaiel,
"it seems there is as much disagreement between the schools of Buddhism as there is between us Catholics and Christians. Allegorical interpretation versus Literal, different Suttas in different sects.".......yes...this is ignorance...this is clinging to ones views...this is the condition of humanity and it makes no difference what religious, political, or philosophical views people cling to....the result is ignorance.....I guess....but I'm not sure....
chownah
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Kaiel, all,

I understand how we can doubt the accounts of people remembering their past lives. It is possible to doubt them by saying that those are merely imaginations, hallucinations or has some kind of bio-chemical cause (illegal drugs) in the brain. You know, if a person is placed in sensory-deprivation room and/or has oxygen deprivation, certain kind of visions are possible. But are such kind of visions trustworthy?

I understand that at least some cases of little children remembering their previous life and being able to say things that they couldn’t have possibly know be argued away as fraud (by their parents, society, researcher, etc), or some sort of extra-temporal case of telepathy or remote viewing that those kids mistook for their own lives…

What I believe is the way to prove or disprove rebirth is in what I will write below:

Does mental state depend, is conditioned or require previous mental states? Of course it goes without saying that current physical/material state does and can play a certain role. The question is if 100% physical state is sufficient for mental state, or does mental state require in addition to physical things previous mental states? Do ten fetters that bind one to samsara originate at physical birth? If they are due to physical causes only, then what prevents these 10 fetters from originating in Arahant if there were certain physical events? Would injecting Arahant with testosterone, adrenalin, altering brain areas responsible for libido/anger/mood, or whatever, create unwholesome mental states for an Arahant? And conversely, is drugging a person and/or altering brain structure to pacify one and remove all anger and greed create an Arahant?

If current mental state requires and is conditioned by previous mental state (and not just matter), and previous mental state is conditioned by an earlier one, then that means that the first instance of mental state of baby-in-the-womb is conditioned by previous mental state. Those previous mental states can only be in the former life, before this baby with its body was even conceived.

This question of “is mental state conditioned also by previous mental states, not just physical” is of crucial practical importance. If a mental state can be totally independent of previous mental states, ie has bio-chemical cause, then mental practice would make no sense for no previous mental state could influence the current one, hormones would. One could, in theory, become totally deluded under the influence of physical causes even though one was a wise saint before. One could totally change in either way merely due to physical causes. Previous good or bad mental skills would then play no role if it is all due to hormones, chemistry, biology, and other similar physical causes rather than previous mental development.

So the argument in favor or against rebirth is better done regarding the necessity of previous state of mind and mental development, for the present state of mind. According to the Buddha, previous mental state does affect the current one. The ten fetters and underlying tendencies are mental (nāma) in original and caused by ignorance (avijjā), not due to physical (rūpa) causes. So how does a newborn baby get them at the first conscious moment? Not from physical causes, but from previous development of wholesome or unwholesome mental qualities.

So all the fetters are not due to physical causes, thus it is Noble Eightfold path, not Noble Chemical path.

1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With best wishes,
Alex
Nicro
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Nicro »

Alex123 wrote:
If current mental state requires and is conditioned by previous mental state (and not just matter), and previous mental state is conditioned by an earlier one, then that means that the first instance of mental state of baby-in-the-womb is conditioned by previous mental state. Those previous mental states can only be in the former life, before this baby with its body was even conceived.

IMO...Bingo!
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