Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

The way down to hell is easy.
The gates of Black Dis¹ stand open night and day.
But to retrace one's steps and escape to the upper air –
that is toil, that is labour.

¹Black Dis is the Guardian of Hell.
(Virgil, the Aeneid, Penguin Hutchinson Reference)

It is unfashionable to believe in hell these days. Any talk about hell is regarded as scaremongering. The Burmese Sayādaw's don't talk so much about Niraya, but they often talk about the dangers of rebirth in the lower realms. Once reborn in the lower realms such as the animal realm, the way down to hell is much easier. I wonder how we can realise just how rare human rebirth is?
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by DNS »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: It is unfashionable to believe in hell these days. Any talk about hell is regarded as scaremongering. The Burmese Sayādaw's don't talk so much about Niraya, but they often talk about the dangers of rebirth in the lower realms. Once reborn in the lower realms such as the animal realm, the way down to hell is much easier. I wonder how we can realise just how rare human rebirth is?
Very true, Bhante.

I suspect people are more attracted to the other slogan, "Anyone can go to heaven, just be good" because it sounds more pleasant and optimistic.

Perhaps for skilful means, the "Anyone can go to heaven, just be good" slogan is better, but you are right, we must never lose sight of how precious and rare human rebirth is.
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by pink_trike »

I've been "reborn" in both hell and heaven repeatedly in this life, sometimes with only a moment or two in between. Now I do my best to avoid them both - and to find the middle ground in daily life, right here, right now. :anjali:
Last edited by pink_trike on Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I like how Bhikkhu Pesala never sugarcoats the Dhamma.

As for "anyone can go to hell", I believe that applies to anyone who has yet to reach stream-entry.

All the more reason to continue striving.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by nathan »

Not afraid to go on record saying that hell is real and deep, easy to get into and hard to get out of. It may be unfashionable to say so and it may be fashionable to take steps towards ending up there but I've never had any fashion sense at all and I'm not afraid to admit that either. Anyone who thinks that hell is only in the mind should make efforts to somehow get a real tour of the real place before it is too late. It's one prayer request that usually get's a pretty speedy and efficacious response from someone somewhere capable of delivering the real goods. Not something I'd advise for the fearful, timid, those with a nervous disposition or for light sleepers and the like though. Go ahead, mock me if you like but I've had a taste, can you say the same?
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by SeerObserver »

nathan wrote:Not afraid to go on record saying that hell is real and deep, easy to get into and hard to get out of. It may be unfashionable to say so and it may be fashionable to take steps towards ending up there but I've never had any fashion sense at all and I'm not afraid to admit that either. Anyone who thinks that hell is only in the mind should make efforts to somehow get a real tour of the real place before it is too late. It's one prayer request that usually get's a pretty speedy and efficacious response from someone somewhere capable of delivering the real goods. Not something I'd advise for the fearful, timid, those with a nervous disposition or for light sleepers and the like though. Go ahead, mock me if you like but I've had a taste, can you say the same?
Sounds like you've seen something very sobering.
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Jechbi »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Any kind of wholesome kamma will change your mental state immediately. Practise generosity, reaffirm your determination to observe morality, practise meditation, pay homage to virtuous monks or to a Buddha image or pagoda, do something to help others, read a Dhamma book, discuss the Dhamma, etc.

Doing wholesome kamma is a practical way to get out of the hell of depression and enter the heaven of non-remorse. If you make wholesome kamma a lifelong habit you need not worry about falling into hell.
:anjali:
Last edited by Jechbi on Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by SeerObserver »

Jechbi wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Any kind of wholesome kamma will change your mental state immediately. Practise generosity, reaffirm your determination to observe morality, practise meditation, pay homage to virtuous monks or to a Buddha image or pagoda, do something to help others, read a Dhamma book, discuss the Dhamma, etc.

Doing wholesome kamma is a practical way to get out of the hell of depression and enter the heaven of non-remorse. If you make wholesome kamma a lifelong habit you need not worry about falling into hell.
:anjali:
Which thread is this quote from?
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by pink_trike »

nathan wrote: Anyone who thinks that hell is only in the mind should make efforts to somehow get a real tour of the real place before it is too late.
Mind is the forerunner of all things.

In psychiatric institutions, I've witnessed toe-curling, torturous, subterranean personal hells that originated of mind/body and were being experienced right here in this realm in living color by the poor people who were trapped there. It isn't important to me whether there is a "real" hell somewhere when the human mind has the potential to deliver us unfathomable hellishness right here - by degrees, for realz. These folks were in the depths of their hell, but they didn't have to go any further than the depths of their own mind to get there. We all have the same potential to go to our own personal hells, and if we practice enough, we probably will take a tour of our own subterranean, bosch-ian landscape...which we note and let go as best we can. Hell? Been there, done that, may do it again.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Jechbi »

SeerObserver wrote:Which thread is this quote from?
This one, but you have to follow the link in the OP to get here. Near the bottom.

:smile:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by cooran »

pink_trike wrote:
nathan wrote: Anyone who thinks that hell is only in the mind should make efforts to somehow get a real tour of the real place before it is too late.
Mind is the forerunner of all things.

In psychiatric institutions, I've witnessed toe-curling, torturous, subterranean personal hells that originated of mind/body and were being experienced right here in this realm in living color by the poor people who were trapped there. It isn't important to me whether there is a "real" hell somewhere when the human mind has the potential to deliver us unfathomable hellishness right here - by degrees, for realz. These folks were in the depths of their hell, but they didn't have to go any further than the depths of their own mind to get there. We all have the same potential to go to our own personal hells, and if we practice enough, we probably will take a tour of our own subterranean, bosch-ian landscape...which we note and let go as best we can. Hell? Been there, done that, may do it again.
Hello Pink,

That is simply people suffering mentally in the human realm. Just as animals in the abattoir screaming in fear are also suffering mentally and physically in the animal realm. According to the Buddha's teachings there are much much worse places - the actual Hell Realms.

metta
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by nathan »

To be honest I'm a little fed up with the implications that I am simply mentally ill. If that's what you think why don't you just come out and say it you cowards.

I'll tell you what. I'll start a new thread called "The most negative mental state", we can all post the most negative mental states we have ever experienced and see who comes out on top.

When we get done with that I will tell you what an experience of actual hell is like. I'm pretty sure that if I don't come out on top of the negative mental state pissing contest that I will at least be a finalist. I have known the depths of depression, where death seems preferable and I have been incarcerated with some of the most violently and psychotically deranged people in society and I have been more or less directly exposed to those states of mind by cohabitation under the influence of some of the most powerful mind opening and mind destroying psychoactive drugs known to man.

I would say, in comparison to hell, the most disturbed and horrific mental states knowable in human experience are like a drop in the ocean of comparative suffering.'

Let the insufferable games begin.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

It might be interesting to discuss what is the wrong view with definite result (niyata micchādiṭṭhi). In my opinion this would include eternalism and annihilationism, which are both accompanied by a strong clinging to the belief in a soul or self (atta diṭṭhi) that either continues after death (sassata diṭṭhi) or is annihilated at death (uccheda diṭṭhi). It would definitely include the wrong views held by Punna and Seniya:
Sace kho panassa evaṃ diṭṭhi hoti — “Imināhaṃ sīlena vā vatena vā tapena vā brahmacariyena vā devo vā bhavissāmi devaññataro vā”ti, sāssa hoti micchādiṭṭhi. Micchādiṭṭhissa kho ahaṃ, seniya, dvinnaṃ gatīnaṃ aññataraṃ gatiṃ vadāmi — nirayaṃ vā tiracchānayoniṃ vā.

If his view is this: “By this morality, ritual, asceticism, or celibacy I shall become some god or other,” that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb.
If all wrong views definitely lead to either hell or the animal womb that would seem to imply that only the Noble Ones will escape that fate, but I don't believe that is the case. It seems that some wrong views have more serious consequences than others, such as the wrongs held by Punna and Seniya, or by Yodhājīva.

The ordinary well-instructed disciple of the Buddha has the fundamental right view called “kammassakatā-sammādiṭṭhi” or right view regarding the ownership of one's own actions. Holding such a right view, one will not be inclined to rely on rites and rituals to gain salvation. Nevertheless, such a person is not free from the serious wrong view of personality-view (sakkāya diṭṭhi). This serious wrong view has been accompanying us throughout the beginningless cycle of rebirth, and eradicating this wrong view is the only sure protection against rebirth in the four lower realms.
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings venerable Pesala,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:If all wrong views definitely lead to either hell or the animal womb that would seem to imply that only the Noble Ones will escape that fate, but I don't believe that is the case.
The fact there were devas and so forth in the higher realms before the enlightenment of the Buddha would lend weight to your argument.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by pink_trike »

Chris wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
nathan wrote: Anyone who thinks that hell is only in the mind should make efforts to somehow get a real tour of the real place before it is too late.
Mind is the forerunner of all things.

In psychiatric institutions, I've witnessed toe-curling, torturous, subterranean personal hells that originated of mind/body and were being experienced right here in this realm in living color by the poor people who were trapped there. It isn't important to me whether there is a "real" hell somewhere when the human mind has the potential to deliver us unfathomable hellishness right here - by degrees, for realz. These folks were in the depths of their hell, but they didn't have to go any further than the depths of their own mind to get there. We all have the same potential to go to our own personal hells, and if we practice enough, we probably will take a tour of our own subterranean, bosch-ian landscape...which we note and let go as best we can. Hell? Been there, done that, may do it again.
Hello Pink,

That is simply people suffering mentally in the human realm. Just as animals in the abattoir screaming in fear are also suffering mentally and physically in the animal realm. According to the Buddha's teachings there are much much worse places - the actual Hell Realms.

metta
Chris
But surely if we practice the Dharma in relationship to the myriad hells available to us here in this realm, then if there are "real" hells somewhere (a big "if") then we will also be practicing in relationship to them. What need to look for real hells somewhere else when the potential for a hellish existence exists for us moment to moment in this life?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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