the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by chownah »

phil wrote:
Also irrelevant are what people would call "hell" experienced in the human realm, that's just fudging the Buddha's teaching to make it palatable to Western sensibilities, in my opinion...
I think you might be misconstruing my post. I'm saying that if the Buddha taught about someting called flobshalist and if I have never experienced anything like what the Buddha teaches about flobshalist then I will not take flobshalist as being a literal thing but I will either take it as being something I need to reinterpret into experiences I have had (that is I would take it as being non-literal) or I would say that I have not yet experienced a flobshalist but it is possible that I might experience it at some time in the future. You can remove and replace flobshalist with hell if you want...or with rebirth for that matter....or heaven...or nibhanna....
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Aloka
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Aloka »

chownah wrote:I think you might be misconstruing my post. I'm saying that if the Buddha taught about someting called flobshalist and if I have never experienced anything like what the Buddha teaches about flobshalist then I will not take flobshalist as being a literal thing but I will either take it as being something I need to reinterpret into experiences I have had (that is I would take it as being non-literal) or I would say that I have not yet experienced a flobshalist but it is possible that I might experience it at some time in the future. You can remove and replace flobshalist with hell if you want...or with rebirth for that matter....or heaven...or nibhanna....
chownah
Absolutely.

Also after private conversations with both a Vajrayana and a Theravada teacher I am confident that its ok for me to interpret the 'realms' as different mental states we can experience in this lifetime.


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Zom
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Zom »

Thinking that heavens and hells should not be taken "literally" - is the Wrong View.
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Aloka
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Aloka »

Zom wrote:Thinking that heavens and hells should not be taken "literally" - is the Wrong View.
Unless you can show them to me Zom, then in my own view its all purely speculative and has no connection to my practice here and now.

Anyway, to return to Ervin's OP, this dhamma talk from Ajahn Sumedho "Where is Hell " might be helpful

http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/index.php ... ile_id=674

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Please see The Incontrovertible Discourse from the Majjhimanikāya.
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Ben
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Ben »

Hi Aloka,
Aloka wrote:Unless you can show them to me Zom, then in my own view its all purely speculative and has no connection to my practice here and now.
How can you possibly know that? How do you know that your view does not condition your practice negatively? And wrong view generated by one's practice or one's experiences or interpretations of them, then just creates a self-validating circle of delusion. Most people who follow a wrong path are completely convinced that they are following the right path.
kind regards

Ben
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Jhana4
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Jhana4 »

Ervin wrote:My understaning is that Budhists believe in hell realms. Once a Budhist reverend told me that one day in hell is 50 thousand years. If that is really the case than that is horific and extremley cruel and disproportionate punishment. Honestly I hope there a is no hell or at least if Budha was right than I hope they are to be taken metaphorically.

Anyway, I am interested in your/theravada take on it!

Thanks
I don't believe it. I don't see those kind of things as being any different than the superstitions/myths Christians on our side of the world believe because that is what they were brought up with those stories. I understand that the Bible has some good advice about life too, admits the myths in its pages. That good advice doesn't make the myths anymore plausible. Same with Buddhism.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by plwk »

I sometimes wonder if the burger I eat is 'real'.... :thinking: :tongue:
FlowerPotMen

Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by FlowerPotMen »

[Mod note: This is a post by the banned and frequent violator of the TOS aka Element, who is a global moderator on Buddhism Without Borders]
Ben wrote:How can you possibly know that? How do you know that your view does not condition your practice negatively? And wrong view generated by one's practice or one's experiences or interpretations of them, then just creates a self-validating circle of delusion. Most people who follow a wrong path are completely convinced that they are following the right path.
Just self-righteous speculation :soap:

The heavens & hells of the six sense bases the Buddha taught is known. However, the heaven & hell of the Flower Pot Men is just imagined :strawman:

It is right view to believe there are other worlds (para loka). The Incontrovertible Discourse from the Majjhimanikāya instructs this mundane right view for the householder promotes the three kinds of skilful action. :reading:

But it cannot lead to enlightenment & the end of suffering. The Incontrovertible Discourse calls it a "lucky throw" or "gamble". :toast:

So the way the mind holds such a view certainly affects one's practise. :sage:

To hold the view as 'literal' is just a self-validating circle of delusion. :spy:

The stream enterer is so because it knows without doubt it is on the right path. The stream enterer has dropped 'self-validating beliefs', doubt and superstition. :meditate:

With metta :heart:
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Alex123
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Alex123 »

chownah wrote: Alex123,
SOMETIMES the Buddha indicated that something he said was a simile....this does not mean that every other time he spoke he meant it to be literal....


But the Buddha NEVER (or please tell where) said that rebirth is a simile and that there is "one life only". Same with the Theravada commentaries and some mahayana commentary that I've read.

I find it preposterous to imply that Buddha was such an incapable teacher who couldn't express His thought clearly, which has led to thousands of years of misinterpreting His Teachings. I really do not know how He could have been even more clear when He frequently said "with the break-up of the body, after death" and defined the body as "this body — endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion " . If there was one life only, then it would be stupid for Gotama to look for a way to end birth, aging and death (MN26), since birth would never be repeated if there was one life only, and nothing could prevent the aging and death of this body (please see again what the body means). Furthermore, if rebirth is supposed to mean arising of mental states in this single life, then why would one need to enter 4th Jhāna to see that? Can't one be aware of ones mind state without having to go as deep?

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.
...
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Alex123 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alex123
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Aloka,
Aloka wrote:
Zom wrote:Thinking that heavens and hells should not be taken "literally" - is the Wrong View.
Unless you can show them to me Zom, then in my own view its all purely speculative and has no connection to my practice here and now.
And who can show you Nibbāna? Have you personally and directly seen it? So how isn't that speculative to you?
Have you personally seen an Arahant, for example? Are you sure you weren't mistaken? So do we reject Arhatship then as mere speculation? (same with other stages).

Is what is said in the Suttas speculative unless it was verified by you? Do we consider our own beliefs to be preferable to suttas?
chownah
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by chownah »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Please see The Incontrovertible Discourse from the Majjhimanikāya.
Bhikkhu Pesala,
In this story the "wise man" does not take the view that "another world" exists nor does he take the view that "another world" does not exist. It seems that if the "wise man" has had some experience suggesting that "another world" exists then he is not formulating views based on that experience...and if the "wise man" has not had some experience of "another world" then he is not formulationg views based on that lack of experience....it seems that the "wise man" is not indulging in views....is this how you see the "wise man"?
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Alex123
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Alex123 »

Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Please see The Incontrovertible Discourse from the Majjhimanikāya.
Bhikkhu Pesala,
In this story the "wise man" does not take the view that "another world" exists nor does he take the view that "another world" does not exist. It seems that if the "wise man" has had some experience suggesting that "another world" exists then he is not formulating views based on that experience...and if the "wise man" has not had some experience of "another world" then he is not formulationg views based on that lack of experience....it seems that the "wise man" is not indulging in views....is this how you see the "wise man"?
chownah
So, before directly seeing Nibbāna, is it a view because that person hasn't yet had the experience suggesting that Nibbāna exists?
So do we reject it then because it is "a view" of which a person had no experience?

If one hasn't personally seen an Arhat, does that mean that it is a view that Arhats exist - and we need to reject it?
etc, etc.

Reading the complete Sutta-Pitaka, is there any reasonable basis to conclude that Buddha taught "one life only", and "rebirth as mental states in this life only"? Was Buddha such an incapable teacher who couldn't clearly say that after one-life it is over?
santa100
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by santa100 »

From Apannaka Sutta:
“Since there is another world, one who holds the view that there is not holds a wrong view. Since there is another world, one who thinks that there is not has wrong thoughts. Since there is another world, one who says there is not uses wrong speech and is opposed to those Arahants who know there is another world. One who convinces another to accept this untrue Dhamma praises himself and disparages others, thus any former morality he had is abandoned and replaced with bad conduct. All of these various unwholesome things — wrong thought, wrong speech and so forth — have wrong view as their origin.”
Well, for the no-rebirth/no-other-world/all-a-myth/all-speculative camp, if you're confident that you can continue your training without the risk of falling into wrong thought, wrong speech, wrong action, etc. then carry on, wishing you all the best. Just be aware that the odds are stacking up against you. The words above were from the Great Teacher. You heard Him...
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

chownah wrote:It seems that the "wise man" is not indulging in views....is this how you see the "wise man"?
The way that I see it is that the wise man knows that he does not know, so he steers a safe and pragmatic course. The Sutta makes it clear what the Buddha's view was:
“Since there is another world, one who holds the view that there is not holds a wrong view. Since there is another world, one who thinks that there is not has wrong thoughts. Since there is another world, one who says there is not uses wrong speech and is opposed to those Arahants who know there is another world. One who convinces another to accept this untrue Dhamma praises himself and disparages others, thus any former morality he had is abandoned and replaced with bad conduct. All of these various unwholesome things — wrong thought, wrong speech and so forth — have wrong view as their origin.”
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