the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:31 pm

chownah wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
chownah wrote:'The world, the world'[1] it is said. In what respect does the word 'world' apply?
Find the answer here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
chownah

And? What meaning do you draw from that sutta, as it relates to the topic?

I think lt helps to understand the "next world"....as is found in the post I was replying to....
chownah



Hell realm involves āyatanas too. Same with heaven in kāma-loka, rūpa-loka and arūpa-loka. The difference is in amount of āyatana and specific objects that is encountered.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:37 pm

PeterB wrote:What the individual sees as essential is not the issue.
The question becomes what does the Buddha see as essential, and he answers that with the 4NT, and 8FP, not by recourse to punabhava... a concept which is capable of diverse interpretations...a diversity which has led to this thread of inordinate length.



4NT contain ponobhavikā.


"Now what, friends, is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; not getting what is wanted is stressful.[2] In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful."

Please guess what "not getting what is wanted is stressful" means?

""And what is the stress of not getting what is wanted? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. ..."

If there was one-life, it would be pointless trying to stop birth and all the dukkha that it will bring again, so this question would not even make sense. How can you stop what will not occur (if there is only one life)? Also if death will happen only once, then why such a big deal about stopping it which is impossible, if there was one life only?

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth."

[Mara:]
Why don't you approve of birth? Once born, one enjoys sensual pleasures. Who now has persuaded you of this: 'Bhikkhuni, don't approve of birth'?

[Cala:]
For one who is born there is death; Once born, one encounters sufferings — Bondage, murder, affliction — Hence one shouldn't approve of birth. The Buddha has taught the Dhamma, The transcendence of birth; For the abandoning of all suffering He has settled me in the truth.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html


""And what is death? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death."

""And what, friends, is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming (ponobhavikā) ..."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
ponobhavikā= leading to rebirth.

Please note that 2nd NT is about craving that leads to rebirth! Not some psychological "I wanted this car, but the stock market crashed and now I am poor" sort of thing.

So even within 4NT, it meantions rebirth, its perils and stopping of it.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:36 pm

There is at least one model of the 4NT's and punabhava including that whole description of death and the passing away of the body with each breath which would sit comfortably within a one lifetime schemata...( actually there are many )
See Ajahn Buddhadasa...

Anyone is of course free to reject( after due consideration ) that model. Just as anyone is free to reject ( after due consideration ) the Three Lifetimes model.

Its no skin off my nose. I really have no preference which model anyone else chooses.
Both can be argued from the Suttas. Take your pick.

:anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby santa100 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:48 pm

Rebirth is so important that if removed, other core dhamma concepts will not hold:
Imagine if rebirth was removed from the Dhamma grand equation:
1. No Samsara: no need to break this wheel, it never exists!!
2. No 4 Fruits: ex: no Stream-Enterer (defined as: rebirth up to seven more times as a human or in a heaven); no Arhant (everyone would automatically become an "arhant" at the end of their life)
3. No 12 links of DO: Becoming (Bhava) was gone; Vinnana wouldn't give rise to Namarupa.
4. Severely "waterdowned" Kamma: it couldn't be applied to the case of child prodigies or extreme mishaps to newborns; with past life and future life gone, Kamma's scope is down to 1/3: the present life only;You're born rich or poor, smart or dumb, beautiful or ugly, prestigious or low, ...all due to chance, not Kamma.
5. No 4 NT: see Alex's detail description above.

Not much of an equation left, is it!!
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:04 pm

santa100 wrote:4. Severely "waterdowned" Kamma: it couldn't be applied to the case of child prodigies or extreme mishaps to newborns...You're born rich or poor, smart or dumb, beautiful or ugly, prestigious or low, ...all due to chance, not Kamma.


And this is a bad thing?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby santa100 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:27 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:
And this is a bad thing?


The Dhamma with 1,2,3,4,5 gone, is it a good thing?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:27 pm

PeterB wrote:There is at least one model of the 4NT's and punabhava including that whole description of death and the passing away of the body with each breath which would sit comfortably within a one lifetime schemata...( actually there are many )
See Ajahn Buddhadasa...

Anyone is of course free to reject( after due consideration ) that model. Just as anyone is free to reject ( after due consideration ) the Three Lifetimes model.


I do accept momentary arising and ceasing of consciousness. But this is not the only kind of arising/passing away that the Buddha has taught. Momentariness and longer term impermanence do not need to exclude each other.

The Buddha often has said about death and rebirth "with the break-up of the body, after death...". This was one of His super knowledges, seeing his own rebirth and rebirth of other beings.

Lets see how the Buddha defined the body:

""Furthermore, the monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.'
...
"Furthermore, the monk contemplates this very body — however it stands, however it is disposed — in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.'

"Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground — one day, two days, three days dead — bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'...
" - MN119
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"And how is a monk content? Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.
...
"'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"And what is death? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


There is absolutely no hint that what He mean was other than this gross body that is born, ages and will eventually die.
Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:29 pm

santa100 wrote:
Lazy_eye wrote:
And this is a bad thing?


The Dhamma with 1,2,3,4,5 gone, is it a good thing?


I asked a specific question, which you seem to be evading.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby santa100 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:34 pm

I gave you an answer. You did not listen.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:39 pm

LOL. Nice try.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:40 pm

santa100 wrote:Rebirth is so important that if removed...


Who said anything about removing it?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby santa100 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:45 pm

Daverupa wrote:
Who said anything about removing it?

Just try to stress the importance of rebirth. Why?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby santa100 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:54 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:
LOL. Nice try


Yeah, we should write longer sentences. Too short and terse, a bit too....Zen-like... :smile:
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:52 pm

Hi Chownah

You may be right. :anjali:

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:59 am

santa100 wrote:
Lazy_eye wrote:
And this is a bad thing?


The Dhamma with 1,2,3,4,5 gone, is it a good thing?

Maybe it is a good thing......all these fabricated things are empty....all represent something to let go of.....when reaching the other shore they are as useless as the raft which as the Buddha suggested could just be sunk and left behind.
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Postby Ben » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:21 am

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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Postby Zom » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:01 am

is that if you are ATTACHED to your belief then other's beliefs may disturb you - this is how I see it.


This is good to attach to Right Views ,)
Because first you need to attach to the raft in order to cross samsara, only then you can let go.

Having no attachment to right views makes you like a boat without a rudder ,)


By the way, good to remember this Buddha's advice: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Postby chownah » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:30 pm

Zom,
"Having no attachment to right views makes you like a boat without a rudder "
This sounds good....have you detached yourself from right views and thus verified this through direct experience? Seems like one can have things without being attached to them...so perhaps one could have right view without being attached to it...I guess...I don't know....
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby santa100 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:08 pm

Sure...only AFTER one has reached the other shore..
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:18 pm

1. No Samsara: no need to break this wheel, it never exists!!


On this view, you would have to claim that one must be convinced of the speculative metaphysics of rebirth before one could come to see that samsara is dukkha. However, "birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief, and despair" can be observed as dukkha without recourse to such speculation, and as such the Four Noble Truths are not reliant on rebirth as their raison d'etre.

2. No 4 Fruits: ex: no Stream-Enterer (defined as: rebirth up to seven more times as a human or in a heaven); no Arhant (everyone would automatically become an "arhant" at the end of their life)


It's possible to be motivated by the idea of "seven lives or less remaining", but it is also possible to be motivated by "independent of others in the Dhamma" or perhaps "a pinch of sand's worth of suffering compared to the mountain of the putthujana" and so on. The list of qualities of these ariyan disciples have enough to offer the rebirth skeptic that rebirth is unnecessary here as well.

3. No 12 links of DO: Becoming (Bhava) was gone; Vinnana wouldn't give rise to Namarupa.


Well, suffice it to say that there are other exegetical iterations of paticcasamuppada that do not rely on rebirth at all.

4. Severely "waterdowned" Kamma: it couldn't be applied to the case of child prodigies or extreme mishaps to newborns; with past life and future life gone, Kamma's scope is down to 1/3: the present life only;You're born rich or poor, smart or dumb, beautiful or ugly, prestigious or low, ...all due to chance, not Kamma.


Kamma isn't the cause of everything, and saying it is misrepresents the Buddha's teaching on it.

5. No 4 NT: see Alex's detail description above.


cf. #1

---

Rebirth is found throughout the Suttas? Yes. Rebirth belief is necessary for practice? No.

The importance of rebirth is very much over-emphasized, and it does a disservice in the face of those who have only a little dust in their eyes, and would practice the Dhamma for great benefit but for this sort of metaphysics. If asked, one must respond that it is involved in the milieu of the Buddha and his teachings, but to claim that it is required for orthopraxis is false.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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