Fate of Jhana Practitioners

[pelletboy]

Will one inevitably be born in the immaterial realms if one has attained fine material and immaterial jhanas or should one be in the said jhanas at the moment of death to be born so? If one is not born in the said realms when one is not in the particular jhana at the moment of death and one has a choice to be born where one wishes to be by what jhana you enter into at the moment of death then why was Asita the seer crying and thought he had no way to meet the Buddha after death because he attained immaterial jhanas? If one is born in higher fine material and immaterial realms then why does the dhamma encourage monks to do jhanas up to immaterial jhanas which would cause one to miss the Sasanas?

[santa100]

Pelletboy wrote:
why does the dhamma encourage monks to do jhanas up to immaterial jhanas which would cause one to miss the Sasanas?

A monk after passing the first 4 "form" jhanas and reach the next 4 "formless" jhanas should not stop there according to the teaching. There's the 9th one (last one): cessation of feeling & perception, the final steppting stone toward arthantship and enlightenment. So, the formless jahnas mentioned in the Suttas are the means to an end but are not the end themselves.

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhana

[pelletboy]

Pelletboy wrote:
why does the dhamma encourage monks to do jhanas up to immaterial jhanas which would cause one to miss the Sasanas?

A monk after passing the first 4 "form" jhanas and reach the next 4 "formless" jhanas should not stop there according to the teaching. There's the 9th one (last one): cessation of feeling & perception, the final steppting stone toward arthantship and enlightenment. So, the formless jahnas mentioned in the Suttas are the means to an end but are not the end themselves.

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhana

If one would look at the case of Asita the seer, there is the risk of being reborn in the immaterial realms after death if one does not attain the fruits of the DHamma(from stream-entry to arhatship). So why encourage it?

[Ben]

Pelletboy wrote:
why does the dhamma encourage monks to do jhanas up to immaterial jhanas which would cause one to miss the Sasanas?

A monk after passing the first 4 "form" jhanas and reach the next 4 "formless" jhanas should not stop there according to the teaching. There's the 9th one (last one): cessation of feeling & perception, the final steppting stone toward arthantship and enlightenment. So, the formless jahnas mentioned in the Suttas are the means to an end but are not the end themselves.

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhana

If one would look at the case of Asita the seer, there is the risk of being reborn in the immaterial realms after death if one does not attain the fruits of the DHamma(from stream-entry to arhatship). So why encourage it?

Indeed!
It is precisely why some vipassana teachers attempt to get their students well established in practicing vipassana before attempting jhanas as jhanas without a firm foundation in vipassana can be incredibly seductive and fool the unwary into thinking that they have actually become enlightened.
kind regards

Ben

[Zom]

If one is born in higher fine material and immaterial realms then why does the dhamma encourage monks to do jhanas up to immaterial jhanas which would cause one to miss the Sasanas?

Because with the right view attaining jhana will result either in non-returning or arahantship.
What is more, MN 64 tells that it is impossible to become a non-returner without a jhana:

It is not possible that one could, knowing and seeing overcome the lower bonds of the sensual world without coming to this path and method. It is like one come to a huge standing tree with heartwood, would cut the heartwood without removing the bark and sapwood. That is not possible, in the same manner, it is not possible that one could know, see and overcome the lower bonds of the sensual world, without coming to this path and method.

what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? ânanda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana (an so on up the jhanas).

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html

[pelletboy]

If one is born in higher fine material and immaterial realms then why does the dhamma encourage monks to do jhanas up to immaterial jhanas which would cause one to miss the Sasanas?

Because with the right view attaining jhana will result either in non-returning or arahantship.
What is more, MN 64 tells that it is impossible to become a non-returner without a jhana:

It is not possible that one could, knowing and seeing overcome the lower bonds of the sensual world without coming to this path and method. It is like one come to a huge standing tree with heartwood, would cut the heartwood without removing the bark and sapwood. That is not possible, in the same manner, it is not possible that one could know, see and overcome the lower bonds of the sensual world, without coming to this path and method.

what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? ânanda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana (an so on up the jhanas).

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html

It is stated in the Jhana book ny Bhante Henepola which I think he derived from the suttas and the commentaries that there were arhats who achieved arhatship through dry-insight alone without jhana much less those who achieved non-returnership without jhana...

[Zom]

It is stated in the Jhana book ny Bhante Henepola which I think he derived from the suttas and the commentaries that there were arhats who achieved arhatship through dry-insight alone without jhana much less those who achieved non-returnership without jhana...

The sutta speaks for itself. Buddha says "impossible". So it's up to you to decide if the sutta lies or not ,)

[chownah]

Zom,
The description of first jhana (from MN 64) is interesting. I went to the link you provided and read the entire description of the first jhana and the last sentence is this:
" ânanda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world."
What I'm wondering is if this is indicating that there is some other method when it says "this too is a method"? I do agree that MN64 also says "It is not possible that one could, knowing and seeing overcome the lower bonds of the sensual world without coming to this path and method."....so it seems like there is a bit of a discrepency somewhere and I guess it is probably in my understanding.
chownah

[pelletboy]

It is stated in the Jhana book ny Bhante Henepola which I think he derived from the suttas and the commentaries that there were arhats who achieved arhatship through dry-insight alone without jhana much less those who achieved non-returnership without jhana...

The sutta speaks for itself. Buddha says "impossible". So it's up to you to decide if the sutta lies or not ,)

Should one know all the jhanas to be liberated? Or is it enough to have just one, the first jhana? ANd did it say that knwoing jhana inevitably leads to liberation but liberation does not always accompany jhana? If the former is true, then there would not be any puthujana brahmas born because all of them wopuld be Noble Ones am i right?

[Zom]

Should one know all the jhanas to be liberated? Or is it enough to have just one, the first jhana? ANd did it say that knwoing jhana inevitably leads to liberation but liberation does not always accompany jhana? If the former is true, then there would not be any puthujana brahmas born because all of them wopuld be Noble Ones am i right?

Jhana is a tool needed for liberation. Just like, for example, viriya (effort) or mindfulness (sati).