YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

First Jhana...a description - Dhamma Wheel

First Jhana...a description

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:37 am

I was surprised to find this reference to first jhana which seems to indicate that not only is there directed thought happening but also evaluation....for me the concept of evaluation means a fairly complex mental event....it seems to me from the description in this Sutta that first jhana could very likely be attained or maintained while off the cushion.....I guess....
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
MN 43 PTS: M i 292
Mahavedalla Sutta: The Greater Set of Questions-and-Answers
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2006–2011


"........................................
The first jhana
"What, friend, is the first jhana?"

"There is the case, friend, where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This is called the first jhana."

"And how many factors does the first jhana have?"

"The first jhana has five factors. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the five-factored first jhana, there occurs directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that the first jhana has five factors."

"And how many factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with how many is it endowed?"

"Five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five is it endowed. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the first jhana, sensual desire is abandoned, ill will is abandoned, sloth & torpor is abandoned, restlessness & anxiety is abandoned, uncertainty is abandoned. And there occur directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five it is endowed."
....................................."

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:55 am

savitakkaṃ, savicāraṃ, vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ,
having initial thought, reflection, as-well as the happiness and joyful-interest native to seclusion,

this is a common description of the first Jhana

it is commonly described to me as placing the nail on the spot it is going to be nailed in (initial thought = vitakka) tthen hammering it in (reflection = vicāra)

Another, less frequent, description of the first jhāna factors includes 'cittass'ekaggata' which can be translated as unification of mind, although it can also be translated as one-pointedness of mind, however as cetaso ekodibhāva can also be translated in both ways, and is commonly used to describe the second jhana, so it would be reasonable to assume a earlier stage on mental unification, where the mind is unified upon the object, although not completely stable due to the verbal formations (savitakkaṃ, savicāraṃ, = initial thought, reflection,) still being present.

I relate it on a coarse level to be like
vitakka, = there is the object.
vicāra = this is what the object is like.

P.S., allot of confusion arises due to this part of the description by the way.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

pegembara
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby pegembara » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:06 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:19 am

What I'm wondering but did not emphasize enough is whether from the description I posted does it seem likely that first jhana can be attained or maintained OFF the cushion? It seems to me that since directed thought and analysis occur then it seems that one could take the process of walking (for instance) as the object (instead of the breath) and the directed thought and analysis could be adequate to support the facilities needed for walking.....I guess this would be first jhana while doing walking meditation....
chownah

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:38 am

some suttas I have read do indicate that it maybe possible although it is not explicitly stated!

however saying that I do doubt it is Jhana when off the cushion but rather what is called access or neighbourhood concentration, also there are some descriptions of the Buddha within the texts which would suggest (to me at least) he may of well been in some form of jhana like state all the time, but again it would of not been jhana proper.

edit - jhana at the first level is said to have the side effect of non-movement, one has a degree of focus that does not allow for physical movement, and as walking meditation is never directly associated to Jhana 'proper' then it is more likely the case that this would be access or neighbourhood concentration.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1645
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Zom » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:39 pm


PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby PeterB » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:53 pm


User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1645
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Zom » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:56 pm


chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:16 pm

Manapa,
Do you know where you got the non-movement notion?...a reference and/or link would be great. I guess the movements of breathing would be excluded....any explanation of why?
chownah

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:27 pm


User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby daverupa » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:53 pm

Capturing the sense of vitakka-vicara in a more colloquial way will come from translating the pair as "thinking-pondering". It still captures the subtlety of the difference while at the same time making it easier to locate in one's experience.

The five-factored jhana description in that Sutta is likely a later formulation. "Unlike the previous four jhana factors, one-pointedness is not specifically mentioned in the standard formula for the first jhana, but it is included among the jhana factors by the Mahavedalla Sutta (M.i,294) as well as in the Abhidhamma and the commentaries." () "Furthermore in the 2nd Jhana, vitakka and vicara are replaced with "vupasama, ajjhattam sampasadanam" and "ekodi-bhavam" - "inner tranquility" and "unification of mind." If there was ekaggata in 1st Jhana, there would be no need to specify the gaining of "ekodi-bhavam" to replace vitakka and vicara in the 2nd Jhana." ()

So, the Sutta in question is actually the one Sutta that makes understanding the Suttanta description of jhana problematic!

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby PeterB » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:17 pm


User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:30 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1645
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Zom » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:52 pm


chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:56 pm


User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:12 pm

I think I picked it up from one of Ajahn Brahms Books actually :embarassed:

but just a note to daverupa - it is best not to assume two different phrases are referring to exactly the same thing.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Nyana » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:17 pm


User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1645
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Zom » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:30 pm

Last edited by Zom on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby daverupa » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:02 pm

Last edited by daverupa on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1645
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Zom » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:11 pm

Last edited by Zom on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Samatha Bhāvana”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine