the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

santa100 wrote:Rebirth is so important that if removed...
Who said anything about removing it?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by santa100 »

Daverupa wrote:
Who said anything about removing it?

Just try to stress the importance of rebirth. Why?
santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by santa100 »

Lazy_eye wrote:
LOL. Nice try
Yeah, we should write longer sentences. Too short and terse, a bit too....Zen-like... :smile:
rowyourboat
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Chownah

You may be right. :anjali:

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

santa100 wrote:
Lazy_eye wrote:
And this is a bad thing?
The Dhamma with 1,2,3,4,5 gone, is it a good thing?
Maybe it is a good thing......all these fabricated things are empty....all represent something to let go of.....when reaching the other shore they are as useless as the raft which as the Buddha suggested could just be sunk and left behind.
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Ben
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Ben »

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“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Zom
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Zom »

is that if you are ATTACHED to your belief then other's beliefs may disturb you - this is how I see it.
This is good to attach to Right Views ,)
Because first you need to attach to the raft in order to cross samsara, only then you can let go.

Having no attachment to right views makes you like a boat without a rudder ,)


By the way, good to remember this Buddha's advice: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
chownah
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by chownah »

Zom,
"Having no attachment to right views makes you like a boat without a rudder "
This sounds good....have you detached yourself from right views and thus verified this through direct experience? Seems like one can have things without being attached to them...so perhaps one could have right view without being attached to it...I guess...I don't know....
chownah
santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by santa100 »

Sure...only AFTER one has reached the other shore..
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

1. No Samsara: no need to break this wheel, it never exists!!
On this view, you would have to claim that one must be convinced of the speculative metaphysics of rebirth before one could come to see that samsara is dukkha. However, "birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief, and despair" can be observed as dukkha without recourse to such speculation, and as such the Four Noble Truths are not reliant on rebirth as their raison d'etre.
2. No 4 Fruits: ex: no Stream-Enterer (defined as: rebirth up to seven more times as a human or in a heaven); no Arhant (everyone would automatically become an "arhant" at the end of their life)
It's possible to be motivated by the idea of "seven lives or less remaining", but it is also possible to be motivated by "independent of others in the Dhamma" or perhaps "a pinch of sand's worth of suffering compared to the mountain of the putthujana" and so on. The list of qualities of these ariyan disciples have enough to offer the rebirth skeptic that rebirth is unnecessary here as well.
3. No 12 links of DO: Becoming (Bhava) was gone; Vinnana wouldn't give rise to Namarupa.
Well, suffice it to say that there are other exegetical iterations of paticcasamuppada that do not rely on rebirth at all.
4. Severely "waterdowned" Kamma: it couldn't be applied to the case of child prodigies or extreme mishaps to newborns; with past life and future life gone, Kamma's scope is down to 1/3: the present life only;You're born rich or poor, smart or dumb, beautiful or ugly, prestigious or low, ...all due to chance, not Kamma.
Kamma isn't the cause of everything, and saying it is misrepresents the Buddha's teaching on it.
5. No 4 NT: see Alex's detail description above.
cf. #1

---

Rebirth is found throughout the Suttas? Yes. Rebirth belief is necessary for practice? No.

The importance of rebirth is very much over-emphasized, and it does a disservice in the face of those who have only a little dust in their eyes, and would practice the Dhamma for great benefit but for this sort of metaphysics. If asked, one must respond that it is involved in the milieu of the Buddha and his teachings, but to claim that it is required for orthopraxis is false.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

daverupa wrote:
1. No Samsara: no need to break this wheel, it never exists!!
On this view, you would have to claim that one must be convinced of the speculative metaphysics of rebirth before one could come to see that samsara is dukkha. However, "birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief, and despair" can be observed as dukkha without recourse to such speculation, and as such the Four Noble Truths are not reliant on rebirth as their raison d'etre.
And 99.999% of suffering & pain is due to potentially endless rebirths. It is impossible to shed enough blood to fill four great oceans (SN15.13) in one life. But in trillions of lifetimes as a flesh&blood being, one can. Same with shedding tears (SN15.3), filling a mountain worth of one's own dead bodies (SN15.10), etc.

The heap of bones one person leaves behind With the passing of a single aeon Would form a heap as high as a mountain: Such is said by the Great Sage.
...But when one sees with correct wisdom The truths of the noble ones—Suffering and its origination, The overcoming of suffering, And the noble eightfold path That leads to suffering’s appeasement— Then that person, having wandered on For seven more times at the most, Makes an utter end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.
” - SN 15.10 (10) Person BB Trans.

Please note: When one is stream-enterer, one will at most will die 7 times, and leave 7 corpses. A worldling can die endlessly until reaching stream-entry.



"This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"For a long time, bhikkhus, you have been cows, and when as cows your heads were cut off, the stream of blood that you shed is greater than the waters in the four great oceans. For a long time you have been buffalo, sheep, goats, deer, chickens, and pigs…. For a long time you have been arrested as robbers, as highwaymen, as adulterers, and when your heads were cut off, the stream of blood that you shed is greater than the water in the four great oceans.
For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this saṃsāra is without discoverable beginning…. It is enough to be liberated from them.
” - SN15.13 (3) BB Trans.


If suffering were limited only to tears being shed, and bodily pains of one life, then it wouldn't be as bad as having to go through it for endless amount of time until Arhatship.


Bhikkhus, suppose that the Himalayas, the king of mountains, would be destroyed and eliminated except for seven grains of gravel the size of mustard seeds. What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the portion of the Himalayas, the king of mountains, that has been destroyed and eliminated or the seven grains of gravel the size of mustard see ds that remain?”

“Venerable sir, the portion of the Himalayas, the king of mountains, that has been destroyed and eliminated is more. The seven grains of gravel the size of mustard seeds that remain are trifling. Compared to the portion of the Himalayas, the king of mountains, that has been destroyed and eliminated, the seven grains of gravel the size of mustard seeds that remain are not calculable, do not bear comparison, do not amount even to a fraction.”

“So too, bhikkhus, for a noble disciple, a person accomplished in view who has made the breakthrough, the suffering that has been destroyed and eliminated is more, while that which remains is trifling. Compared to the former mass of suffering that has been destroyed and eliminated, the latter is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction, as there is a maximum of seven more lives.
" - SN 56.60 (10) The Mountain(2) BB Trans.

Again, suffering in 7 lives is trifling compared to what could be experienced in potentially endless samsara. So to deny rebirths with all their peril, what one does is that one denies the full extent of dukkha and the importance of getting out. If there is one life, then it is possible to end all suffering merely by dying. But if there is rebirth, this will not work and this would be great dukkha!
Last edited by Alex123 on Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Zom »

.so perhaps one could have right view without being attached to it...I guess...I don't know....
Actually in MN 22 in "raft simile" and "snake simile" Buddha shows that Dhamma is to be grasped firmly and properly, attached to.. and ONLY after you have gotten to the other shore (arahantship), only then you can release your grasp of Dhamma, but not before that :reading:

So it's the same with the views. (right) Views are your proper belief. You use them as a tool. And at the very end you will drop all views and other Dhamma tools also.
santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by santa100 »

Daverupa wrote:
On this view, you would have to claim that one must be convinced of the speculative metaphysics of rebirth before one could come to see that samsara is dukkha
This is a terrible distortion of the truth. Samsara INCLUDES element of dukkha but IS NOT Dukkha. You're really bending the truth to dodge my logic. 5 kandhas is also dukkha, wrong view is also dukkha, greed, anger, delusion is also dukkha, the list goes on and on... to you, Dukkha is the definition to everything. Please provide the exact DEFINITION of Samsara.

For 2., you tried to side-step again. Please provide the exact definition of Stream-Enterer.

For 3. Please provide the exact definition of Bhava; and show how Vinnana gives rise to Namarupa without rebirth.

For 4. 4. Are you saying one's born rich or poor, smart or dumb, beautiful or ugly, prestigious or low, ...are all due to chance?
Who is misrepresenting the Buddha's teaching now?
santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by santa100 »

Daverupa wrote:
The list of qualities of these ariyan disciples have enough to offer the rebirth skeptic that rebirth is unnecessary here as well.
By the way, since Stream-Enterer won't exist without rebirth, where do you get the inspiration if HE never exists at the first place?
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

Alex123 wrote:And 99.999% of suffering & pain is due to potentially endless rebirths.
This is not apparent to anyone who does not see their past lives or the passing away and arising of beings, both of which are supernormal abilities. So, you are either claiming to have these abilities or you are claiming that you experience the thought of endless rebirth as dukkha. Endless rebirth can't be a problem for you if you haven't experienced it. The problem is simply the thought of it. We might say that the intellect was contacting this particular dhamma and, consciousness present, this contact results in unpleasant vedana. Therefore, whether or not rebirth obtains as fact, dukkha can be understood according to the Dhamma as clinging to one or another of the six senses (or, "...in sum, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha"). Rebirth introduces unnecessary complexity.
Alex123 wrote:If there is one life, then it is possible to end all suffering merely by dying. But if there is rebirth, this will not work and this would be great dukkha!
The point is that agnosticism about rebirth demands equal agnosticism about a single-life model, so while your if-then statement is logically valid, it is not known to be factual. A consistent agnostic will avoid commitment to either option, and one is here reminded of the advice the Kalamas received on just such a point.
santa100 wrote:You're really bending the truth to dodge my logic. 5 kandhas is also dukkha, wrong view is also dukkha, greed, anger, delusion is also dukkha, the list goes on and on... to you, Dukkha is the definition to everything. Please provide the exact DEFINITION of Samsara.
The five clinging-aggregates are dukkha, which means that any experience you can possibly have as a putthujana is dukkha due to avijja, and the continuance of this state of affairs is samsara. The only escape is nibbana. I haven't mentioned punabhava yet because I don't need to.
santa100 wrote:For 2., you tried to side-step again. Please provide the exact definition of Stream-Enterer.
It isn't a side-step. Show how it is, please.
santa100 wrote:For 3. Please provide the exact definition of Bhava; and show how Vinnana gives rise to Namarupa without rebirth.
This has been attempted and challenged ad nauseum elsewhere, and here we must simply disagree.
santa100 wrote:For 4. 4. Are you saying one's born rich or poor, smart or dumb, beautiful or ugly, prestigious or low, ...are all due to chance?
I never said all were due to chance - you are putting words in my mouth.

i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results.
ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains.
iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order); e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.
iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.
v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, gravitation, etc.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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