First Jhana...a description

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby daverupa » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:12 pm


chownah
Posts: 6167
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:42 am

Zom,(and everyone)
You wrote:
"That is I stand for that idea of completely silent but fully aware mind in the jhana. "
I think this is interesting. To say the mind is silent can be taken to mean that there is no auditory thought object arising....but it can also be taken as a metaphor for a mind that is not actively providing content but rather observing some content that is arising and is simply observed by the mind....or I suppose it could mean something somewhere between or similar to these two. For me the exact intended meaning of a completely silent mind is not understood also because you have coupled it with the mind simultaneously being fully aware....so if we are ruling out certain thoughts (auditory for example) we must still have something for the mind to be fully aware of...I guess.

This question about what the mind is fully aware of also arises from this excerpt from the link you provided in the "Fate of Jhana Practicioners" thread:
==========================
MAJJHIMA NIKâYA II
II. 2. 4. Mahàmàlunkhyaputtasuttaü
(64) The Major Discourse to Venerable Malunkhyaputta

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html
"....................
ânanda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? ânanda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction*1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. ânanda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.
.............."
=======================
It seems like there is alot of reflecting and turning of the mind and the mind coming to this or that etc. I agree with the basic idea I get from your statement that the mind is silent during jhana but it is difficult for me to come up with some idea about just what the mind is doing and whether it is an active doing or a passive doing (is "passive doing" an oxymoron?) or just what the limits would be without "breaking" jhana.

Also, seems like this description is of two parts...first is the secluding of the mind....and then there is the reflecting on stuff....I interpret this as being "meditation" followed by "contemplation".....so....is the stuff in the meditation part what happens "in" jhana or is it just the stuff to "attain" jhana?...........it's like watching a dvd....to watch a dvd you have to put the dvd into the player....but putting the dvd into the player is not watching a dvd...it is only the preparation for watching the dvd.........so...........is the "meditation" part only the preparation for jhana and it is actually the "contemplation" part that is jhana?...or is it both?....or is there no practical reason for me to ask this question....

chownah

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby kirk5a » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:13 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

chownah
Posts: 6167
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:33 am


User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby kirk5a » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:28 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:21 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

chownah
Posts: 6167
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:02 pm


User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:46 pm

Venerable Vimalaramsi reckons you can, http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm but I have doubts that it could be called Jhana proper!

it is easy to forget that if the factors for the 1st jhana are present then their is a valid reason to call it the first Jhana, but is it really what jhana is or just a designation you are giving to it?

either way you can change the name if you later decide it is inaccurate, and personally I do have doubts but you need to see if the factors are there yourself and decide whether or not it is appropriate to call them jhana or not.

I would recommend you to read 'The experiance of Samadhi' by richard shankman, it is a very thorough book on the subject and covers both sutta and visudhimagga 'methods' and includs interviews with some very well knows teachers, however, if you know and trust a teacher upon the list in the link above, follow their instructions and please not because they agree with you on this (at this stage). if you know the teachings and respect Thanissaro Bhikkhu thus have faith in him, follow it try to get in contact with him, etc or one of the other teachers, but only because you know of and trust in them first, second would be you can have easier contact with them, and definitely last is that they agree with you on this at this stage.and there are many more teachers who teach Jhana not just those on the list, one may live very close to you.

BTW some say you can hear sounds and others say you definitely cant hear anything in any Jhana, but who are we to listen to? our experience!


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

access concentration?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:04 am

Hi All,

Im wondering if there is a Sutta source for the state which Manapa mentions called "access concentration". I am aware of a whole spectrum of deepening meditative absorption. In my experience it is not a two dimensional progression because many positive factors progress and recede in varying degrees. This is why I ask. If there is some description of a state which is approaching jhana but discerned from it in a helpful manner by the Buddha as recorded in the Suttas, then it might help me navigate my progression into states conducive to awakening.


Thanks

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

chownah
Posts: 6167
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:53 am

Manapa,
Thanks for the link....I went there and found a reference to MN111 which I found at accesstoinsight and I found this:
""There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him."

This seems to indicate that there can be a variety of mental activities happening within the first jhana....including contact, feeling, perception, and intention. It seems from this that walking meditation might be possible while in first jhana as pretty much all that is required for walking seems to be included.....I'm wondering if many people consider that the conditions necessary for entering first jhana to be what all that is possible while in jhana....I'm starting to be of the view that the conditions for entering are more restrictive but once attained it can be maintained through quite a bit of mental activity....but of course the mind must be very focused so the quality of the mental activity would be quite different from what we do in our usual mode of being.
chownah

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: access concentration?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:47 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:52 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

chownah
Posts: 6167
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:12 pm


pegembara
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby pegembara » Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:46 pm

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: access concentration?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:30 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

chownah
Posts: 6167
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:49 am


chownah
Posts: 6167
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:06 am

Prasadachitta,
Not a commentary....but its something.
http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... ration.pdf
Three Levels of Concentration
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
April 14,

An excerpt:
".................
This brings you to the next level, which is called “threshold,” “access,” or “neighborhood” concentration. It’s in the neighborhood of getting really settled down, but it’s not quite there yet. This is where the mind grows fairly peaceful, but at this stage it can easily lose its focus. As I said, with momentary concentration, the problem is that it can’t withstand displeasure. Well, the
problem with access concentration is that it can’t withstand pleasure. It loses focus when it runs into real pleasure................
............."
chownah

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:41 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

chownah
Posts: 6167
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby chownah » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:33 pm

Manapa,
Thanks for focusing on qualities....are you saying that directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention are all qualities of the mind?...it seems to me that some are but contact for instance seems more like something that is happening. This is mostly a side issue in that for a quality to establish there will be an activity associated...at least I think you said this. For me the bottom line is that the list of "whatever qualities there are in the first Jhana" seems to allow that there could be physical activity other than breathing...perhaps walking....a let me say that the walking meditation I've learned is much more refined than any description I've heard of Buddhist walking meditation...it's way slower for instance. Anyway....I hope you can see my view on the list of qualities and if you can provide any information that can show my views to be incorrect please do so....I have no problem with being wrong about things and appreciate information which helps me to challenge my views....for instance if I really should be seeing contact as a quality please let me know.
Also, I found http://images.manapa.multiply.multiplyc ... =376229246 by googling a portion of what you reproduced above. I'm interested in the footnote to Clear Knowing that being:
"Also called clear comprehension, and maybe related to the first two stages
of ānāpānasati practice, that of discerning the length of the breath. This
would expand our initial focus within a formal posture to general
movements, and then further, from how we are moving, too why we are
moving/acting."
Can you talk about "expand ouir initial focus within a formal posture to general movements"....could this be general movements like walking?

chownah

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: First Jhana...a description

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:54 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.


Return to “Samatha Bhāvana”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine