First Jhana...a description

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Cittasanto
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by Cittasanto »

I think I picked it up from one of Ajahn Brahms Books actually :embarassed:

but just a note to daverupa - it is best not to assume two different phrases are referring to exactly the same thing.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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Nyana
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by Nyana »

Zom wrote:As I see it, this is an incorrect interpretation of Ven. Thanissaro. This "evaluation" in pali sound like "vicara", and Canonical Commentaries say that this is not an "evaluation", but this is the function of the mind that holds an object (so that is just "holding" the meditation object).
The canonical commentaries don't say this.
Zom wrote:While the second factor is vitakka - and that is NOT a thought, but a this is a mind's directing to the object. So the commentarial example of these 2 factors is this: imagine that you grab a cup with left hand and start rubbing it with right hand. Same with the mind applying itself onto the object. It directs itself (vitakka) and holds the object (vicara).
Again, the canonical commentaries don't say this. You're relying on late post-canonical interpretations of these two terms. The canonical Dhammasaṅgaṇī gives the following two registers for vitakka and vicāra (the English equivalents here are those offered by Lance Cousins, who's done an exhaustive survey of all relevant Pāli sources):
  • vitakka:

    1. takka 2. vitakka 3. saṅkappa 4. appanā 5. byappanā 6. cetaso abhiniropanā 7. sammāsaṅkappa

    1. speculation 2. thought 3. thought formation 4. fixing 5. firm fixing 6. applying the mind 7. right thought formation.

    vicāra:

    1. cāra 2. vicāra 3. anuvicāra 4. upavicāra 5. cittassa anusandhānatā 6. anupekkhanatā

    1. wandering 2. wandering about 3. repeated wandering about 4. frequenting 5. explorativeness of mind 6. constant examination.
And here's how the early para-canonical Peṭakopadesa defines and explains these two jhāna factors:
  • Here, for fulfilling non-passion he thinks the thought of renunciation. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression he thinks the thought of non-aversion. Here, for fulfilling non-delusion he thinks the thought of harmlessness.

    Here, for fulfilling non-passion he is secluded from sensual pleasures. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression and fulfilling non-delusion he is secluded from unskillful phenomena. And so he enters and remains in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion.

    Directed thought: There are three kinds of directed thought, namely the thought of renunciation, the thought of non-aversion, and the thought of harmlessness.

    Here, directed thought is the first instance while evaluation is the evaluation of what is thereby received. Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man, but when he has received [the recognition] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,” then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes, “How then, is he ethical or unethical, rich or poor?” This is examination. With directed thought he fixes. With examination he moves about and turns over [what has been thought].

    And just as a winged bird first accumulates [speed] and then accumulates no more [speed when gliding], so too, directed thought is like the accumulation, and evaluation is like the outstretched wings which keeps preserving the directed thought and evaluation....

    Directed thought is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Evaluation is like him simply contemplating it.
All the best,

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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by Zom »

Indeed, I've taken this explanation from Visuddhimagga (which is based on ancient canonical commentaries).

This is the page 136 in 2010 edition. :reading:
Here, directed thought is the first instance while evaluation is the evaluation of what is thereby received. Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man, but when he has received [the recognition] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,” then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes, “How then, is he ethical or unethical, rich or poor?” This is examination. With directed thought he fixes. With examination he moves about and turns over [what has been thought].
Actually I don't see this differs much from what is said in the Visuddhimagga. Especially when we are talking in the context of, for example, anapanasati meditation, when we need to constantly watch the breath and not ponder over some ideas. By the way, in the Visuddhimagga there is that example with the bird mentioned too.

Here, for fulfilling non-passion he thinks the thought of renunciation. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression he thinks the thought of non-aversion. Here, for fulfilling non-delusion he thinks the thought of harmlessness.
It depends on how to render it. For example, it is quite strange how someone should constantly "think about how he is non-harmful" -) So maybe it is better to understand this like that - "Here, for fulfilling non-passion his mind is filled with renunciation (that is not picking up themes of sensuality); Here, for fulfilling non-aggression his mind is filled with non-aversion (that is the mind filled with kindness to all beings)" ? So in this case these are not "thoughts" in common understanding, but the special inner qualities of the mind.
Last edited by Zom on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
daverupa
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by daverupa »

Zom wrote:Actually I don't see this differs much from what is said in the Visuddhimagga. Especially when we are talking in the context of, for example, anapanasati meditation, when we need to constantly watch the breath and not ponder over some ideas.
According to a Suttanta perspective, this is only a partial view of anapanasati. Given that first jhana includes vitakka-vicara (thinking and pondering can occur in first jhana), it should be remarked that this thinking and pondering isn't the run-of-the-mill vitakka-vicara with any old content, but rather the right frames of reference which precede sammasamadhi - which is to say, sammasati, or satipatthana. This is properly understood as mindfulness with the breath, not solely mindfulness of the breath.

"Just mindful he breathes in, just mindful he breathes out" is a component of all four anapanasati tetrads, but it is not the sole content.

:heart:
Manapa wrote:but just a note to daverupa - it is best not to assume two different phrases are referring to exactly the same thing.
When did this happen?
Last edited by daverupa on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by Zom »

According to a Suttanta perspective, this is only a partial view of anapanasati. Given that first jhana includes vitakka-vicara (thinking and pondering can occur in first jhana), it should be remarked that this thinking and pondering isn't the run-of-the-mill vitakka-vicara with any old content, but rather the right frames of reference which precede sammasamadhi - which is to say, sammasati, or satipatthana.
I don't argue with that. I'm just telling that this is not "thinking about some idea" - even about the breath as an object of satipatthana.
From my personal experience I'm sure that this contemplation is done without any thinking. You just watch, and, of course, you see and realize what is happening with the object and with the mind. But this is not a discursive thinking about the object or thinking on this or that theme.

That is I stand for that idea of completely silent but fully aware mind in the jhana.
Last edited by Zom on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
daverupa
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by daverupa »

Zom wrote:But this is not a discursive thinking about the object or thinking on this or that theme.
It is vitakka and vicara, but no it is not papanca.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

Zom,(and everyone)
You wrote:
"That is I stand for that idea of completely silent but fully aware mind in the jhana. "
I think this is interesting. To say the mind is silent can be taken to mean that there is no auditory thought object arising....but it can also be taken as a metaphor for a mind that is not actively providing content but rather observing some content that is arising and is simply observed by the mind....or I suppose it could mean something somewhere between or similar to these two. For me the exact intended meaning of a completely silent mind is not understood also because you have coupled it with the mind simultaneously being fully aware....so if we are ruling out certain thoughts (auditory for example) we must still have something for the mind to be fully aware of...I guess.

This question about what the mind is fully aware of also arises from this excerpt from the link you provided in the "Fate of Jhana Practicioners" thread:
==========================
MAJJHIMA NIKâYA II
II. 2. 4. Mahàmàlunkhyaputtasuttaü
(64) The Major Discourse to Venerable Malunkhyaputta

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"....................
ânanda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? ânanda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction*1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. ânanda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.
.............."
=======================
It seems like there is alot of reflecting and turning of the mind and the mind coming to this or that etc. I agree with the basic idea I get from your statement that the mind is silent during jhana but it is difficult for me to come up with some idea about just what the mind is doing and whether it is an active doing or a passive doing (is "passive doing" an oxymoron?) or just what the limits would be without "breaking" jhana.

Also, seems like this description is of two parts...first is the secluding of the mind....and then there is the reflecting on stuff....I interpret this as being "meditation" followed by "contemplation".....so....is the stuff in the meditation part what happens "in" jhana or is it just the stuff to "attain" jhana?...........it's like watching a dvd....to watch a dvd you have to put the dvd into the player....but putting the dvd into the player is not watching a dvd...it is only the preparation for watching the dvd.........so...........is the "meditation" part only the preparation for jhana and it is actually the "contemplation" part that is jhana?...or is it both?....or is there no practical reason for me to ask this question....

chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by kirk5a »

chownah wrote:so if we are ruling out certain thoughts (auditory for example) we must still have something for the mind to be fully aware of...I guess.
Consider it like this:
THE METHOD OF DEVELOPING BHAVANA

One begins with the body posture that is comfortable whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down, whatever is convenient. One should then make oneself fully aware with just bare awareness, not trying to be aware of "something", just knowing itself alone. One then keeps the citta there continuously, just in bare awareness. There is no need to be discursive or analytical. Don't force it but also don't let the citta be free to follow events.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... _Atulo.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

kirk5a wrote:
chownah wrote:so if we are ruling out certain thoughts (auditory for example) we must still have something for the mind to be fully aware of...I guess.
Consider it like this:
THE METHOD OF DEVELOPING BHAVANA

One begins with the body posture that is comfortable whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down, whatever is convenient. One should then make oneself fully aware with just bare awareness, not trying to be aware of "something", just knowing itself alone. One then keeps the citta there continuously, just in bare awareness. There is no need to be discursive or analytical. Don't force it but also don't let the citta be free to follow events.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... _Atulo.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I looked at the link and frankly the approach shown (after only a cursory look, without thorough examination) looks like something I am not interested in spending too much time studying....but setting that aside and focusing on the small portion you have reproduced here I guess you are saying to consider it to be similar to one of the possibilities I mentioned above: " a mind that is not actively providing content but rather observing some content that is arising and is simply observed by the mind"....I guess....is this correct? Also, what you have suggested seems the have possible applicability to the first part of the practice....that is to say the part of the practice I call "secluding the mind" or "meditation" or that I have described as possibly "preparation for jhana".....are you suggesting that the text you have given is also a description of the second part which I have called "reflecting on stuff" or "contemplation" ? I can see the text applying to the first part but the description of the second part as given in the text I provided seems way to active in its description to be consistent with what you have provided.
What I have written seems really hard to follow...I'll rephrase it.....:
Does this:
"One should then make oneself fully aware with just bare awareness, not trying to be aware of "something", just knowing itself alone. "
Apply to this:
"...first is the secluding of the mind "
and/or does it apply to this:
" and then there is the reflecting on stuff."
Seems to me it can reasonably be thought to apply to secluding of the mind but it does not seem like it can reasonably be thought to apply to the reflecting on stuff part.
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by kirk5a »

chownah wrote: Does this:
"One should then make oneself fully aware with just bare awareness, not trying to be aware of "something", just knowing itself alone. "
Apply to this:
"...first is the secluding of the mind "
and/or does it apply to this:
" and then there is the reflecting on stuff."
Seems to me it can reasonably be thought to apply to secluding of the mind but it does not seem like it can reasonably be thought to apply to the reflecting on stuff part.
chownah
I was responding to your earlier wondering about the meaning of "completely silent but fully aware mind" - how it is the mind can be aware without focusing on something. So I thought perhaps Ajahn Dun's instructions would clarify. I'm not sure it's helpful to try to draw a point to point comparison between those instructions and the ones you quoted from that sutta.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by Cittasanto »

I was sort of correct I remembered it was speech not movement!
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN36.11 wrote:"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

Manapa wrote:I was sort of correct I remembered it was speech not movement!
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN36.11 wrote:"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to follow up on this. This sutta is interesting in that it seems to indicate that throughout the first jhana there is directed thought and evaluation because indicates that these cease upon attaining second jhana.
Although there are many who tend to minimize the realms of directed thought and evaluation while in first jhana it does seem that there are some references that seem to indicate that it might be more active than some describe....of course I'm wanting first jhana to be possible during walking meditation so I have a bias to accept any shred of evidence which points that way and to minimize things that go contrary to it....
It's interesting that the reference says that in fourth jhana the in and out breathing has ceased.....I'm wondering if this is the usual comment on fourth jhana...I've never heard of this before.
Thanks again for the followup...
chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by Cittasanto »

Venerable Vimalaramsi reckons you can, http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but I have doubts that it could be called Jhana proper!

it is easy to forget that if the factors for the 1st jhana are present then their is a valid reason to call it the first Jhana, but is it really what jhana is or just a designation you are giving to it?

either way you can change the name if you later decide it is inaccurate, and personally I do have doubts but you need to see if the factors are there yourself and decide whether or not it is appropriate to call them jhana or not.

I would recommend you to read 'The experiance of Samadhi' by richard shankman, it is a very thorough book on the subject and covers both sutta and visudhimagga 'methods' and includs interviews with some very well knows teachers, however, if you know and trust a teacher upon the list in the link above, follow their instructions and please not because they agree with you on this (at this stage). if you know the teachings and respect Thanissaro Bhikkhu thus have faith in him, follow it try to get in contact with him, etc or one of the other teachers, but only because you know of and trust in them first, second would be you can have easier contact with them, and definitely last is that they agree with you on this at this stage.and there are many more teachers who teach Jhana not just those on the list, one may live very close to you.

BTW some say you can hear sounds and others say you definitely cant hear anything in any Jhana, but who are we to listen to? our experience!
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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access concentration?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hi All,

Im wondering if there is a Sutta source for the state which Manapa mentions called "access concentration". I am aware of a whole spectrum of deepening meditative absorption. In my experience it is not a two dimensional progression because many positive factors progress and recede in varying degrees. This is why I ask. If there is some description of a state which is approaching jhana but discerned from it in a helpful manner by the Buddha as recorded in the Suttas, then it might help me navigate my progression into states conducive to awakening.


Thanks

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

Manapa,
Thanks for the link....I went there and found a reference to MN111 which I found at accesstoinsight and I found this:
""There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him."

This seems to indicate that there can be a variety of mental activities happening within the first jhana....including contact, feeling, perception, and intention. It seems from this that walking meditation might be possible while in first jhana as pretty much all that is required for walking seems to be included.....I'm wondering if many people consider that the conditions necessary for entering first jhana to be what all that is possible while in jhana....I'm starting to be of the view that the conditions for entering are more restrictive but once attained it can be maintained through quite a bit of mental activity....but of course the mind must be very focused so the quality of the mental activity would be quite different from what we do in our usual mode of being.
chownah
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