the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Skeptic » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:58 am

PeterB wrote:What if the concept of Arahants ( and the rest of the heirachy of attainment ) is the expression of a poetic ideal rather than an expression of ontological reality ?


The funny thing is that our daily practice and value of Dhamma remains the same even if that is the case.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:03 am

Yes..... :smile:

:anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Akuma » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:13 am

I really don't see how you come to those odd conclusions and actually I don't understand your post at all.
It seems you think it is more than that, then do you have anything to support your view?
BTW an arahant is not to be measured in terms of birth and death, birth and death do not apply anymore.


If you say "there will be birth again after death" this implies the birth of all sorts of living beings in all sorts of worlds after your death. Since Nirvana is among other things characterized by no-birth your only capability of realizing Nirvana would be for other beings not to be born after you. And your way to do that is to either kill living beings or to not give birth to one yourself. The latter was actually a view proposed by a person on the german forum - he saw the ending of ignorance in the ending of the wish to create more humans.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Akuma » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:23 am

PeterB wrote:What if the concept of Arahants ( and the rest of the heirachy of attainment ) is the expression of a poetic ideal rather than an expression of ontological reality ?


What if its true for enlightenment, too?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:55 am

Isnt it ?
I rather thought that it was not a description of an ontological reality. I thought that was rather the point.
Akuma wrote:
PeterB wrote:What if the concept of Arahants ( and the rest of the heirachy of attainment ) is the expression of a poetic ideal rather than an expression of ontological reality ?


What if its true for enlightenment, too?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:46 pm

PeterB wrote:Isnt it ?
I rather thought that it was not a description of an ontological reality. I thought that was rather the point.
Akuma wrote:
PeterB wrote:What if the concept of Arahants ( and the rest of the heirachy of attainment ) is the expression of a poetic ideal rather than an expression of ontological reality ?


What if its true for enlightenment, too?

Then which points of the Dhamma would not be expressions of a poetic ideal? Where does one draw the line? If the entirety of the Dhamma was the expression of a poetic ideal, would our practice remain the same? I think not.

If this notion had any merit, I think the Buddha would have mentioned this feature of his teaching. Instead, what he said was during the time when the Dhamma was in decline, teachers would be basically poets. If I recall correctly.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:17 pm

" Would our practice remain the same " ? I cant answer that.
Does MY practice remain the same..yes.
Does the notion have any merit ?

For me it does ..yes.


Perhaps you would care to show the reference for the Buddha saying that teachers will be poets ?

It would instantly become my favourite quotation of his.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:19 pm

Ontological reality or poetic ideal....choose your weapon and come out firing!!!!
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:21 pm

Or simply watch as bald men argue over combs. :smile:


There is an assumption made here that truth and the poetical are somehow incompatible.
I would argue that the poetical can be more true than a recitation of factual data.
This becomes particularly the case when what is under discussion is experiential rather than merely philosophical.

The Buddha did not spring fully formed from the head of Zeus..or Brahma.
He arose in a culture with a particular world view already formed from ancient times.
He used those elements to arrive at a non ontological view, but one which borrowed from the ontology of the prevailing culture.

We each have to decide which of those elements are useful to us and which not.
"Where we draw the line " is a issue vital to the authenticity of our individual journey.
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:29 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Hi Bhikkhu Pesala

I think that trying to become a better person might hinder the removal of personality view.


- cultivating what is wholesome (best articulated IMHO as 'becoming a better person') IS '..the teaching of the Buddhas


...Cultivating wholesome Dhammas such as reverence (garavo) and humility (nivato) means not regarding oneself as better than others due to following the "right" path of Buddha Dhamma...



I agree, but the question is, is becoming a better person, an aid to self-view or conceit- it can be- so can samatha and vipassana progress- that doesnt mean we should stop pursuing it- what we need to stop doing is be blinkered into thinking that ALL of the dhamma is samatha and vipassana- it is broader, gentler, deeper..

The issue of becoming a 'better person' becomes critical AFTER stream entry- that is after you have got rid of the Self-view- because removing all defilements is required for Anagami stage practice. So self view is NOT a big issue- even though conceit might be- but then even conceit is undermined by the erradication of self view.

Just my opinion..

with metta

:namaste:

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:46 pm

acinteyyo wrote:What if "rebirth" doesn't mean anything else than there will be birth again after death?
Does the Buddha tell us anywhere that there is more to it?
best wishes, acinteyyo


Is there even a single clear quote about that?


Rebirth is often said after "with the break-up of the body, after death..."
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=2300#p143597

The "Body" is defined as the physical body that exists for a long time:
"Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The Buddha had so often, and in so many suttas have defined body as literal body that it is very unbelievable to refuse His definition in order to make the body sound like something else, thus refuting what the "with the break-up of the body, after death..." line means.

Most suttas would NOT make sense if we remove the rebirth of the body.
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:51 pm

Au contraire..
As Ajahn Buddhadasa has pointed out clearly and repeatedly , if we put the Three Lives Model to one side a whole series of meanings start to leap out of the Suttas that are obscured by a semi Hindu model. A model necessitated by the culture which the Buddha commenced his teaching ministry.
In a very real sense the dissolution of the body and its rebirth happen with every breath.
Last edited by PeterB on Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:51 pm

PeterB wrote:The Buddha did not spring fully formed from the head of Zeus..or Brahma.
He arose in a culture with a particular world view already formed from ancient times.
He used those elements to arrive at a non ontological view, but one which borrowed from the ontology of the prevailing culture.


In MN130 He rejected the idea that He borrowed elements such as Hell Realms:
``Bhikkhus, I say this not hearing from another recluse or brahmin, this is what I have myself known and seen and so I say it
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... uta-e.html

Furthermore, His philosophic culture was very very diverse. There were teachers who denied rebirth. There were Materialists, Sceptics and other kinds of Teachers. He could take Materialist or Skeptic view if that was true and useful. He didn't.

I find it preposterous if He "borrowed" false teaching from culture of his listeners just to get bigger Audience and more converts... I take it as Axiom that what He said is true, for if we allow Him to speak falsehood, then entire teaching could be negated, or one could pick-and-chose what to believe and what not to believe.
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:59 pm

PeterB wrote:Au contraire..
As Ajahn Buddhadasa has pointed out clearly and repeatedly , if we put the Three Lives Model to one side a whole series of meanings start to leap out of the Suttas that are obscured by a semi Hindu model. In a very real sense the dissolution of the body and its rebirth happen with every breath.



Maybe it is the Hindu model that took Buddha's teaching and made their own teaching?

Why limit D.O. only to one model such as momentary? I believe it can be used for 3-1 lifetimes, momentary,, and structural.

It doesn't refute Rebirth. It depends on it. For why end suffering if we are going to be done with it even if we don't do anything and die? Hitler and Mother Theresa would equally achieve parinibbana... With one life 99.999% of dukkha is already gone...


The Buddha clearly explained what He meant by Body:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=2300#p143597

It is denial to assume that He meant something else by the word body, unless he redefined the term.




"[9] "He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Please note how the Body is defined in that sutta. There is absolutely no hint that it was any other body than the one that can walk, stand, sit, lie, decompose in the cemetery, is made of bodyparts (31 are listed for contemplation), and is made of 4 elements (earth, water, fire, air).
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:59 pm

PeterB wrote:Perhaps you would care to show the reference for the Buddha saying that teachers will be poets ?

It would instantly become my favourite quotation of his.

"This, monks, is the third future danger, unarisen at present, that will arise in the future. Be alert to it and, being alert, work to get rid of it.

"And again, there will be in the course of the future monks undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. They — being undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment — will not listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, profound, transcendent, connected with the Void — are being recited. They will not lend ear, will not set their hearts on knowing them, will not regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping and mastering. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:02 pm

It is you Alex that insist on a demarcation between truth and poetic expression.

Each of us must decide what is true and what is not useful to us.

I have no interest ( really and truly ) in influencing you or anyone else in any way in these matters.
Neither after much reflection on these matters during which I have moved along a spectrum of views over many years likely to be swayed by any form of words or protestations of direct insight denied to those who think differently.
The only reason I have joined this ultimately futile debate at all is to demonstrate to anyone still wavering that there are alternatives to a wholesale swallowing of a kind of fundamentalist view.

Buddha Dhamma is what you do. Not what belief structure you cultivate.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:03 pm

PeterB wrote: Au contraire..
As Ajahn Buddhadasa has pointed out clearly and repeatedly , if we put the Three Lives Model to one side a whole series of meanings start to leap out of the Suttas that are obscured by a semi Hindu model. A model necessitated by the culture which the Buddha commenced his teaching ministry.
In a very real sense the dissolution of the body and its rebirth happen with every breath.


There need not be a next-worldly interpretation of punabhava or saṃsāra for the essentials of contemplative work to progress. The 4-NT gives the function of DO in the present: there is dukkha because of preferential craving for the impermanence of things. Ignorant and unaware of this habit one foolishly repeats, follows after, and ruminates about (anuparivatti) these conditions over and again; thus one revisits these habits again (punabbhava). Saṃsāra can easily be recognized as mental recidivism as the examples of moment to moment birth through ignorant contact (avijjasamphassajena) can be read in the Nikāyas and paraphrased in ones daily life. The examples below gives also the positive result of the 3rd-NT by the shift of the perspective of the contemplative, turning away from taṇhā, to remain in the real.

SN. 3.1.5.5 Samanupassanā suttaṃ

Discourse on Viewpoints

Sāvatthiyaṃ:
Ye hi keci bhikkhave, samaṇāvā brahmaṇā vā anekavihitaṃ attānaṃ samanupassamānā samanupassanti, sabbe te pañcupādānakkhandhe samanupassanti, etesaṃ vā aññataraṃ.

Katame pañca?

Idha bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano ariyānaṃ adassāvī ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinīto, sappurisānaṃ adassāvī sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinīto, rūpaṃ attato samanupassati rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ attati vā rūpaṃ, rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ, …vedanaṃ attato samanupassati vedanāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ attati vā vedanaṃ,vedanasmiṃ vā attānaṃ, … saññaṃ attato samanupassati saññāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ attani vā saññaṃ saññasmiṃ vā attānaṃ, … saṅkhāre attato samanupassati saṅkharāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ attati vā saṅkhāraṃ,saṅkhārasmiṃ vā attānaṃ, … viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ attati vā viññāṇaṃ viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.

At Sāvatthi. “Bhikkhus, there are ascetics and Brahmins who hold to the conceited viewpoint of a ‘Self’, in various and particular ways, all of which pertain to the five-bases of conditionality subject to be identified with. Which five?”

“Bhikkhus, there is an untaught-commoner who does not take notice of the Wise Ones, who is not trained in the Doctrines of the Wise Ones nor is he possessed of the wisdom of the Doctrines of the Wise Ones - who does not take notice of Refined Persons, who is not trained in the Doctrines of the Refined Persons nor is he possessed of the wisdom of the Doctrines of the Refined Persons, He is of the viewpoint that materiality is ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ possesses materiality, or materiality is in ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ is in materiality. He is of the viewpoint that sensations of feeling are ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ possesses sensations of feeling, or sensations of feeling are in ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ is in sensations of feeling. He is of the viewpoint that sense-awareness is ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ possesses sense-awareness, or sense-awareness is in ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ is in sense-awareness. He is of the viewpoint that volitional-cognition is ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ possesses volitional-cognition, or volitional-cognition is in ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ is in volitional-cognition. He is of the viewpoint that consciousness is ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ possesses consciousness, or consciousness is in ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ is in consciousness.

[The Buddha’s classic refutation of the Brahman Absolute Self]

Iti ayañceva samanupassanā asmīti cassa avigataṃ hoti. Asmīti kho pana bhikkhave avigate, pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ avakkanti hoti: cakkhunadriyassa sotindriyassa ghānindriyassa jivhindriyassa kāyindriyassa. Atthi bhikkhave mano atthi dhammā, atthi avijjādhātu avijjāsamphassajena bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa asmīti'pissa hoti, ayamahamasmīti'pissa hoti bhavissanti pi'ssa hoti, rūpī bhavissanti'pissa hoti, arūpī bhavissanti'pissa hoti. Saññī bhavissanti'pissa hoti, asañañī bhavissanti'pissa hoti. Nevasaññīnāsañañī bhavissanti'pissa hoti.

Therefore because of these viewpoints this ‘I am’ has not vanished. Therefore, bhikkhus, because this ‘I am’ has not vanished, he is beset[1] with these five characteristics; the eye characteristic, the ear characteristic, the nose characteristic, the tongue characteristic and the body characteristic. There exists, bhikkhus, the mind; there exists its phenomena and there exists the factor of ignorance. Born of ignorant contact, bhikkhus, the untaught-commoner is influenced by sensations[2]; thus it occurs to him ‘I am’, thus it occurs to him ‘I am this’, thus it occurs to him ‘I exist’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall not exist’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall be composed of materiality’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall not be composed of materiality’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall be composed of sense-awareness’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall not be composed of sense-awareness’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall consist of neither sense-awareness nor not of sense-awareness’.

[1. avakkanti – he ‘falls into…’ the senses]
[2. vedayitena phuṭṭhassa – he is affected by the experience of them and thus assumes “‘I am’…” ]

Tiṭṭhanti kho pana bhikkhave, tattheva pañcindriyāni, athettha sutavato ariyasāvakassa avijjā pahīyati, vijjā uppajjati, tassa avijjāvirāgā vijjuppādā asmīti'pissa na hoti. Ayamahamasmiti'pissa na hoti, bhavissanti'pissa na hoti, na bhavissanti'pissa na hoti, saññī bhavissanti'pissa na hoti, asaññī bhavissanti'pissa na hoti, nevasaññīnāsaññi bhavissanti'pissa na hotīti.

Bhikkhus, the five characteristics exist right there, although for the learned noble disciple; ignorance has been abandoned and knowledge has arisen. Therefore with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of knowledge; thus it does not occur to him ‘I am’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I am this’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I exist’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall not exist’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall be composed of materiality’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall not be composed of materiality’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall be composed of sense-awareness’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall not be composed of sense-awareness’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall consist of neither sense-awareness nor not of sense-awareness’.

[the same faculties exist for the ariya, although “ignorance has been abandoned and knowledge has arisen…” minus the taking up of ‘self’ (and all of the above which would result in the angst of saṃsāra). All in a present context.]


---

SN. 2.1.5.4 Lokasuttaṃ

Discourse on The World

Sāvatthiyaṃ- Lokassa bhikkhave samudayaṃ ca atthaṅgamaṃ ca desissāmi taṃ suṇātha. Sādhukaṃ manasikarotha bhāsissāmī'ti. Evaṃ bhante'ti kho te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṃ. Bhagavā etadavoca:

Katamo ca bhikkhave, lokassa samudayo? Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ. Tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso. Phassapaccayā vedanā vedanāpaccayā taṇhā. Taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṃ. Upādānapaccayā bhavo. Bhavapaccayā jāti. Jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavanti. Ayaṃ kho bhikkhave lokassa samudayo.

At Sāvatthi: “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the arising and extinction of conditions. Listen well and pay close attention, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir” The bhikkhus replied.

Then the Sublime One said:

“And what, bhikkhus, is the arising of conditions? Dependant on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. With the union of these three is contact. Contact is the supportive condition for the sensation of feeling, the sensation of feeling is the supportive condition for craving, craving is the supportive condition for grasping, grasping is the supportive condition for becoming, becoming is the supportive condition for birth and birth is the supportive condition for aging and death, sorrow, grief, weeping, pain and mental distress. This, bhikkhus, is the arising of conditions.”

Sotañca paṭicca sadde ca uppajjati sotaviññāṇaṃ … pe … ghāṇañca paṭicca gandhe ca uppajjati ghāṇaviññāṇaṃ … pe … jivhañca paṭicca rase ca uppajjati jivhāviññāṇaṃ … pe … kāyañca paṭicca phoṭṭhabbe ca uppajjati kāyaviññāṇaṃ … pe … manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ. Tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso. Phassapaccayā vedanā. Vedanāpaccayā taṇhā. Taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṃ. Upādānapaccayā bhavo. Bhavapaccayā jāti. Jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavanti. Ayaṃ kho bhikkhave lokassa samudayo.

“Dependant on the ear and sound, ear-consciousness arises; … dependant on the nose and odors, nose-consciousness arises; … dependant on the tongue and tastes, tongue-consciousness arises; … dependant on the body and sensations, body-consciousness arises; … dependant on the mind and phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. With the union of these three is contact. Contact is the supportive condition for the sensation of feeling, the sensation of feeling is the supportive condition for craving, craving is the supportive condition for grasping, grasping is the supportive condition for becoming, becoming is the supportive condition for birth and birth is the supportive condition for aging and death, sorrow, grief, weeping, pain and mental distress. This, bhikkhus, is the arising of conditions.”

[note that this analysis of DO is in present experience]

Katamo ca bhikkhave, lokassa atthaṅgamo? Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ. Tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso. Phassapaccayā vedanā. Vedanāpaccayā taṇhā. Tassāyeva taṇhāya asesavirāganirodhā upādānanirodho. Upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho. Bhavanirodhā jātinirodho. Jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti. Ayaṃ kho bhikkhave lokassa atthaṅgamo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the extinction of conditions? Dependant on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. With the union of these three is contact. Contact is the supportive condition for the sensation of feeling, the sensation of feeling is the supportive condition for craving. But with the cessation and fading without remainder of that craving is the extinction of grasping, with the extinction of grasping is the extinction of becoming, with the extinction of becoming is the extinction of birth and with the extinction of birth is the extinction of aging and death, sorrow, grief, weeping, pain and mental distress. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the extinction of conditions.”

Sotañca paṭicca sadde ca uppajjati sotaviññāṇaṃ … pe … ghāṇañca paṭicca gandhe ca uppajjati ghāṇaviññāṇaṃ … pe … jivhañca paṭicca rase ca uppajjati jivhāviññāṇaṃ … pe … kāyañca paṭicca phoṭṭhabbe ca uppajjati kāyaviññāṇaṃ … pe … manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ. Tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso. Phassapaccayā vedanā. Vedanāpaccayā taṇhā. Tassāyeva taṇhāya asesavirāganirodhā upādānanirodho. Upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho. Bhavanirodhā jātinirodho. Jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti. Ayaṃ kho bhikkhave lokassa atthaṅgamo.

“Dependant on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises; … dependant on the nose and odors, nose-consciousness arises; … dependant on the tongue and tastes, tongue-consciousness arises; … dependant on the body and sensations, body-consciousness arises; … dependant on the mind and phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. With the union of these three is contact. Contact is the supportive condition for the sensation of feeling, the sensation of feeling is the supportive condition for craving. But with the cessation and fading without remainder of that craving is the extinction of grasping, with the extinction of grasping is the extinction of becoming, with the extinction of becoming is the extinction of birth and with the extinction of birth is the extinction of aging and death, sorrow, grief, weeping, pain and mental distress. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the extinction of conditions.”

[note that in this analysis of DO avijja is replaced by taṇhā, where the ‘cessation and fading without remainder…’ of taṇhā simply means that one with insight or knowledge turns away at taṇhā, the natural function (dhammatā) of contemplative endeavor ]


These are two examples of many which provide the actual function of DO analysis to be used in contemplative work. All in the present. No purchase of a rebirth retirement plan necessary.

---

“The Caterpillar and Alice looked at each other in
silence for some time; at last the Caterpillar took
the hookah out of its mouth, and addressed her in
a languid, sleepy voice.

‘Who are you?’ said the Caterpillar.

Alice replied rather shyly, ‘I—I hardly know, sir,
just at present—at least I knew who I was when I
got up this morning, but I think I must have been
changed several times since then.’”

—Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:12 pm

What HE said... :smile:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:17 pm

kirk5a wrote:
PeterB wrote:Perhaps you would care to show the reference for the Buddha saying that teachers will be poets ?

It would instantly become my favourite quotation of his.

"This, monks, is the third future danger, unarisen at present, that will arise in the future. Be alert to it and, being alert, work to get rid of it.

"And again, there will be in the course of the future monks undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. They — being undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment — will not listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, profound, transcendent, connected with the Void — are being recited. They will not lend ear, will not set their hearts on knowing them, will not regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping and mastering. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

That carries NO suggestion that teaching will diminished by a poetic interpretation.
Rather it talks about a arising of works of mere literary merit and a concomitant diminishing of interest in the teachings of the Buddha , None of which advocates a particular interpretation of those teachings which are of the Buddha.
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Postby daverupa » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:22 pm

As for becoming a better person, as long as this is understood correctly it's actually found throughout the Suttas. I'll mention chapter three of The Selfless Mind in this connection, and simply mention that arahants are described as "bhavit-atto" in the Cullaniddesa.

:focus: :shrug:
Last edited by daverupa on Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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