the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: The Pali terminology is more than rich enough to accommodate both the rebirth position and the "dependently originated phenomenon."
So in your view did the Buddha intend to convey both these positions?

Spiny
To me this is a false dichotomy.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

tiltbillings wrote:Dukkha is an experiential quality -- that is, it is has meaning only in terms of someone experiencing it. Cling to what changes and you get dukkha, thus all compounded this are dukkha.
That's the way I understand dukkha. A rock is only dukkha when you stub your toe on it. ;)

Spiny
Jonttu
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Jonttu »

I found venerable Analayo's paper about MN 117 and its parallel versions interesting. Apparently, the supramundane right view part was added later to the sutta from the Abhidharma, and the supramundane path-factors do not appear anywhere else in the Nikayas.
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Jonttu wrote:I found venerable Analayo's paper about MN 117 and its parallel versions interesting. Apparently, the supramundane right view part was added later to the sutta from the Abhidharma, and the supramundane path-factors do not appear anywhere else in the Nikayas.
So, in other words, this sutta really cannot be meaningfully used by those who poo-poo the commentaries and the Abhidhamma. Good stuff.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:
Jonttu wrote:I found venerable Analayo's paper about MN 117 and its parallel versions interesting. Apparently, the supramundane right view part was added later to the sutta from the Abhidharma, and the supramundane path-factors do not appear anywhere else in the Nikayas.
So, in other words, this sutta really cannot be meaningfully used by those who poo-poo the commentaries and the Abhidhamma. Good stuff.
Oh good.....I've always thought that this sutta makes too tight of a distinction between what is noble and what is not and tends to take one away from the idea that perhaps right view does not come in two flavors but actually is one long continuum which for convenience and instruction is divided up into two general types....my view is that as one progresses along the path one starts to view things in terms of the ideas that the Buddha taught instead of the ideas that the world teaches and that this transition often comes about gradually....seeing that it has probably been corrupted with the inclusion of later views makes it more consistent with my views....thanks for pointing this out.
chownah
(Post has been edited to eliminate humor which some have found offensive, chownah)
Last edited by chownah on Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

Jonttu wrote:I found venerable Analayo's paper about MN 117 and its parallel versions interesting. Apparently, the supramundane right view part was added later to the sutta from the Abhidharma, and the supramundane path-factors do not appear anywhere else in the Nikayas.
The supramundane path-factors are listed in MN 117 as:
The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of
discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening....

MN 117
These supramundane path-factors appear everywhere in the Nikaya, such as
follows:
And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a
monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment
of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending
of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the
origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path
of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty
of discernment.

SN 48.10
There are these five strengths. Which five? Strength of conviction,
strength of persistence, strength of mindfulness, strength of concentration
& strength of discernment. These are the five strengths.

SN 50.1
Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes & comes to a
comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains mindful in
this way, examining, analyzing & coming to a comprehension of that quality
with discernment, then analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening
becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of
its development.

SN 54.13
Analayo's argument does not have merit to me because MN 60 is a sutta which,
addressed to the householder, only presents the mundane right view for the
outcome of three skillful activities: good bodily conduct, good verbal
conduct, good mental conduct.

MN 60 states the right view for the householder is that of existence.
B3. .....this venerable person is still praised in the here-&-now by
the wise as a person of good habits & right view: one who holds to a
doctrine of existence.

MN 60
This mundane right view of existence in MN 60 is contrary to the
supramundane right view in SN 12.15 of neither existence or non-existence.
By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its
object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the
origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment,
'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one
sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment,
'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

SN 12.15
Analayo's arguments remain unconvincing to me.

With metta

Aloka
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Aloka wrote:. . . Analayo's arguments remain unconvincing to me.
What you have written does not even touch Ven Analayo's argument, and certainly does not touch my objections to your use of MN 117.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Jonttu wrote:I found venerable Analayo's paper about MN 117 and its parallel versions interesting. Apparently, the supramundane right view part was added later to the sutta from the Abhidharma, and the supramundane path-factors do not appear anywhere else in the Nikayas.
So, in other words, this sutta really cannot be meaningfully used by those who poo-poo the commentaries and the Abhidhamma. Good stuff.
See also the references in this thread: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 814#p23831" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Jonttu wrote:I found venerable Analayo's paper about MN 117 and its parallel versions interesting. Apparently, the supramundane right view part was added later to the sutta from the Abhidharma, and the supramundane path-factors do not appear anywhere else in the Nikayas.
So, in other words, this sutta really cannot be meaningfully used by those who poo-poo the commentaries and the Abhidhamma. Good stuff.
See also the references in this thread: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 814#p23831" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
It certainly looks that trying to use MN 117 as an anti-rebirth text is a dismall failure.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:It certainly looks that trying to use MN 117 as an anti-rebirth text is a dismall failure.
Is that what anyone here has done though? (they may well have, I'm certainly not reading all the posts in this topic to check!)

Or have they just called it mundane right view?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:It certainly looks that trying to use MN 117 as an anti-rebirth text is a dismall failure.
Is that what anyone here has done though? (they may well have, I'm certainly not reading all the posts in this topic to check!)

Or have they just called it mundane right view?
Mundane right view that leads nowhere accept to more acquisitions, if we are to believe the anti-rebirthers, but it is promoted as an anti-rebirth text in this thread and especially so in this thread:


http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=663#p7510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:So, in other words, this sutta really cannot be meaningfully used by those who poo-poo the commentaries and the Abhidhamma. Good stuff.
tiltbillings wrote:It certainly looks that trying to use MN 117 as an anti-rebirth text is a dismall failure.
It seems to me that if one poo-poos the commentaries and the Abhidhamma and accepts the Bhikkhu's views then one might be of the view that using MN 117 is inappropriate.
It also seems to me conversely that if one denies the appropriate use of MN 117 on the grounds of the Bhikkhu's views then one is by doing this poo-pooing the commentaries and Abhidhamma. It seems to me that if one accepts the commentaries and the Abdhimma then they should accept MN 117 as appropriate to the topic and that the views of others should not change this.
So it seems to me that you are poo-pooing the commentaries and the Abdhimma...I have not been of the opinion that you poo-pooed them so I hope you can clarify my thinking on this so that in the future I will better understand your comments on this and other issues.
chownah
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, in other words, this sutta really cannot be meaningfully used by those who poo-poo the commentaries and the Abhidhamma. Good stuff.
tiltbillings wrote:It certainly looks that trying to use MN 117 as an anti-rebirth text is a dismall failure.
It seems to me that if one poo-poos the commentaries and the Abhidhamma and accepts the Bhikkhu's views then one might be of the view that using MN 117 is inappropriate.
It also seems to me conversely that if one denies the appropriate use of MN 117 on the grounds of the Bhikkhu's views then one is by doing this poo-pooing the commentaries and Abhidhamma. It seems to me that if one accepts the commentaries and the Abdhimma then they should accept MN 117 as appropriate to the topic and that the views of others should not change this.
So it seems to me that you are poo-pooing the commentaries and the Abdhimma...I have not been of the opinion that you poo-pooed them so I hope you can clarify my thinking on this so that in the future I will better understand your comments on this and other issues.
chownah
The problem with this line of thought is, however, that either way MN 117 does not support the anti-rebirthers position as presented here. Just go back a few msgs and read Aloka's msgs and my responses. I have no problem with taking MN 117 as is, but the research of Ven Analayo adds an ironic twist to the ant-rebirthers use of the text.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

Tiltbillings,
I'm not up to dueling the dual views here....my mouse broke and I'm navigating the glowing screen using keystrokes only....what an adventure......
But....just for the record...do you poo-poo? (the commentaries and Abhdhamma that is).
chownah
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:But....just for the record...do you poo-poo? (the commentaries and Abhdhamma that is).
No; however, while important, they are open to question. Also, it is worth noting I have yet see any major translation effort of the suttas not use the commentaries as a guide. Ven Bodhi is interesting in this regard in that he will clearly note when he departs from the commentaries.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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