What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

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tiltbillings
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
Akuma wrote: How can there be a citta beyond the aggregates?
Well we can read the following passages and find it answers questions or gives rise to new ones. Probably gives rise to new ones. :smile:
"'Consciousness without surface,
endless, radiant all around,
has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All.
Yes, but what does it really mean?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Akuma
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by Akuma »

kirk5a wrote:
Akuma wrote: How can there be a citta beyond the aggregates?
Well we can read the following passages and find it answers questions or gives rise to new ones. Probably gives rise to new ones. :smile:
"'Consciousness without surface,
endless, radiant all around,
has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.'
According to apparently the Atthakatha to Kevatta Sutta vinnanam doesnt mean consciousness here but "should be cognized [as]". Dmytro cited Dhammanando Bhikkhu here on Dhammawheel:

Herein [in this sutta], viññāṇaṃ means "should be cognized".

The commentarial tradition strongly rejects the idea that nibbāna is any kind of consciousness and the commentator's point here is that viññāṇaṃ in this context is not to be understood in its more common sense (i.e. as a noun meaning "consciousness") but rather as an adjective qualifying the noun anidassanaṃ.
(http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 18&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Starter wrote tho that he believes there to be a "transcendend awareness" in the Arahant. So unless Nirvana is an awareness thats seeing itself then there would here be two unconditioned dhammas, one Nibbana and one the unconditioned Citta perceiving Nibbana since the latter would be not part of the Khandas. Thats why I ask. ^^
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by starter »

kirk5a wrote:
starter wrote:  …“the ordinary, elementary state of knowing in the present” is NOT the primal nature of the mind, BUT the mind consciousness.[/b]
Apparently you disagree with Ajahn Lee's explanation. For what reason, or based upon what source?
Hi Kirk and Akuma,

As I understand, "the primal nature of the mind" probably refers to the "original", "luminous" nature of the pure mind without defilements; only this unconditioned, transcendental awareness could be the primal nature of the mind before the incoming defilements set in. The ordinary, elementary state of knowing in the present is surely a conditioned state, belonging to the conditioned dhamma. Only after we have completely removed the incoming defilements the mind can return to its "primal nature", an unconditioned state. I think it's very important to be able to distinguish mind consciousness (the sixth consciousness aggregate) from the nibbanized mind. As I mentioned in my post, "We might think we've broken the self identity view (or have become liberated) but probably not yet -- we could still hold the mind consciousness as the (liberated) citta, as the "true self". ... As soon as the mind generates sense conciousness and becomes aware of an object, it discriminates this object from itself as other than itself, and differentiate between itself (the senser) as the subject and the sensed as the object, which creates a sense of "self". Due to avija, the defiled mind misinterprets and grasps the mind consciousness and the other aggregates as "self". It's through penetrating that the sense consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) is ANATTA, that the mind can be liberated by not clinging/attaching to such consciousness, and the other aggregates."

"How can there be a citta beyond the aggregates?"
-- I'm not saying that there's an unconditioned citta existing together with the aggregates. The relationship between the defiled mind (conditioned by greed/aversion/delusion) and the purified/liberated mind (unconditioned by the assavas/defilements) is kind of like a calm water (the citta) and stormy water; the storm/waves (the aggregates including mind consciousness) is caused by incoming defilements. The mind of a living arahant is nibbana with residue (of the aggregates), and the residue is of course not the deathless; however, at the stage of cessation of perception and feeling the aggregates including mind consciousness have "disappeared" (ceased functioning) and that transcendental awareness (beyond the aggregates) of the arahant is truly the deathless, to my understanding.

Metta to all!
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kirk5a
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:Yes, but what does it really mean?
It means that
if you want to know the truth concerning any of the above issues, you have to follow the path and reach the truth on your own. Otherwise, you'll have to argue endlessly.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
starter
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by starter »

Hello Dhamma Friends,

Happy new year!

Just listened to a Dhamma talk by a teacher who has been internally considered to be enlightened (though he has never claimed that himself). To my understanding, he mentioned something like "the mind that doesn't think is the citta" (?), and "the mind that thinks / the knower is not the citta" (I agree with this part). I also read a similar teaching some time ago by a Mahayana master who has also been considered as an arahant: the mind that doesn't think at present is the "true nature" or "true self"). I was wondering how could the enlightened ones in the Mahayana tradition still remain in or came back to Samsara and thought it's probably through their own will. But now I'm wondering if it could be because they still haven't broken the finest delusion -- delusion of mind consciousness as true citta, and the delusion such as "the emptiness is form" ("nibbana is Samsara"). I don't think that the Buddha has ever taught us that "the emptiness is form", but only taught "the form is empty (of self)". To my immature opinion, the most important differences between the Buddha's teaching and the teachings of the other schools (including the other Buddhist branches) are that the five aggegates (including mind consciousness) are anatta, and nibbana is beyond the five aggregates (Samsara) and should not be conceived as "self". The teachings of the other schools don't seem to have broken the self identity view (e.g. mind consciousness as true nature/self) and don't seem to have correctly understood nibbana, and therefore they can't lead to true liberation. It might suit the Bodhisattas' vows though, so that they can remain in Samsara until becoming self-enlightened Buddhas (now I also understand why they have to be self-enlightened eventually). So their path might not be wrong either. Just some thoughts to share with you, and your input would be appreciated.

Metta to all,

Starter
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santa100
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by santa100 »

Looking further into the Bodhisattva stages, notice there's really no difference to the original teaching of the Buddha. The 52 Bodhisattva stages mentioned in the Mahayana's Avatamsaka Sutra is simply the elaboration on the vows and practice of an un-enlightened Bodhisatta before Complete Enlightenment. Even within Mahayana's doctrine, it is explicitly stated that after reaching the 51st stage, the Boddhisattva's still not done yet. THere's still that tinyest and subtlest level of delusion/ignorance that s/he would need to work on in order to completely eradicate it and move on to the 52nd stage, which is full Buddhahood. So, the reason a Bodhisattva "hang around" in this Samsara cannot exclusively be attributed to his compassionate vows to help sentient beings but also because there's still work left to be done to perfect his/her paramis. Looking from this angle, there's really no difference between Mahayana, Theravada, or Vajrayana..
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by starter »

After pondering upon "One perception arose in me as another one ceased", which occurred to Ven. Sariputta during the sphere of cessation of perception and feeling (AN 10.7 see viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8350&start=20), it appeared to me it’s not that there’s an eternal true nature/"Buddha nature”/"essence of mind”/"true self” existing together with mindconsciousness as our present awareness while in Samsara, but that only as consciousness (“waves”) ceases at the sphere of cessation of perception and feeling (and probably also at the death of an arahant), the transcendental awareness arises.

It seems to me that any meditative experience, except the transcendental awareness occurring at the cessation of perception and feeling, is still mind consciousness, and should not be identified/perceived as nibbanized mind/the ultimate goal. A lasting radiant citta is probably not an indication of the final enlightenment; a “free, vast, supremely empty, absolutely pure, boundless, totally expansive citta" should probably not be labeled as the end of the path as well. Uprooting of assavas probably does not depend upon the radiance of the mind or the disappearance of such radiance. Our effort should better be made to develop/purify the mind, to obtain right liberating insight knowledge (4NT and 3 characteristics) to end ignorance/craving/clinging and enter nibbana, instead of getting lost in mistaking mind consciousness as "pure citta".

Metta to all,

Starter
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by starter »

Just looked at AN1 again and realized that the "luminous mind" freed from incoming defilements mentioned in AN1 is probably not the same mind as in the fourth jhāna, which is not yet free from incoming defilements -- such a mind still has the underline tendencies of greed/aversion/delusion since ignorance is not yet eradicated, and is still mind consciousness.

AN1:
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}
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Alex123
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by Alex123 »

It is important to be very clear on what "luminous" means. It can simply mean the mind free from hindrances. No need to make it eternal or anything like that.
starter
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by starter »

Greetings!

Would it be better to translate the 6th type of vinnana as "mind consciousness (cognition) instead of "intellect consciousness"? The translation of "intellect consciousness" could lead to the failure of recognizing that a non-thinking mind during e.g. the 4th jhana or during a non-thinking mode at the present moment is actually still mind consciousness. The same applies to the translation of "intellect" instead of "mind", and "idea" instead of "mental phenomena". A mind can be absent of intellect, and mental phenomena includes not only idea -- it could be absent of idea. Such translations could be misleading.

"Pañña & Viññāṇa, friend: Of these qualities that are conjoined, not disjoined, Pañña is to be developed, Viññāṇa is to be fully comprehended." (MN 43)

Metta to all!
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manas
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by manas »

I will expound you the Dhamma, bhikkhus, for the complete understanding of all upādāna. Listen to it. And what, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma for the complete understanding of all upādāna?

On account of the eye and visible forms, cakkhu·viññāṇa arises. The meeting of the three is phassa. Phassa·paccayā vedanā. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a sutavā ariyasāvaka is disgusted by the eye, he is disgusted by visible forms, he is disgusted by the eye-viññāṇa, he is disgusted by eye-phassa, he is disgusted by vedanā. Being disgusted, he gets detached. Being detached, he gets liberated. Being liberated, he understands: 'upādāna has been completely understood by me'.

On account of the ear and sounds, ear-viññāṇa arises. The meeting of the three is phassa. Phassa·paccayā vedanā. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a sutavā ariyasāvaka is disgusted by the ear, he is disgusted by sounds, he is disgusted by the ear-viññāṇa, he is disgusted by ear-phassa, he is disgusted by vedanā. Being disgusted, he gets detached. Being detached, he gets liberated. Being liberated, he understands: 'upādāna has been completely understood by me'.

On account of the nose and odors, nose-viññāṇa arises. The meeting of the three is phassa. Phassa·paccayā vedanā. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a sutavā ariyasāvaka is disgusted by the nose, he is disgusted by odors, he is disgusted by the nose-viññāṇa, he is disgusted by nose-phassa, he is disgusted by vedanā. Being disgusted, he gets detached. Being detached, he gets liberated. Being liberated, he understands: 'upādāna has been completely understood by me'.

On account of the tongue and tastes, tongue-viññāṇa arises. The meeting of the three is phassa. Phassa·paccayā vedanā. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a sutavā ariyasāvaka is disgusted by the tongue, he is disgusted by tastes, he is disgusted by the tongue-viññāṇa, he is disgusted by tongue-phassa, he is disgusted by vedanā. Being disgusted, he gets detached. Being detached, he gets liberated. Being liberated, he understands: 'upādāna has been completely understood by me'.

On account of the body and bodily phenomena, body-viññāṇa arises. The meeting of the three is phassa. Phassa·paccayā vedanā. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a sutavā ariyasāvaka is disgusted by the body, he is disgusted by bodily phenomena, he is disgusted by the body-viññāṇa, he is disgusted by body-phassa, he is disgusted by vedanā. Being disgusted, he gets detached. Being detached, he gets liberated. Being liberated, he understands: 'upādāna has been completely understood by me'.

On account of mana and dhammas, mana·viññāṇa arises. The meeting of the three is phassa. Phassa·paccayā vedanā. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a sutavā ariyasāvaka is disgusted by mana, he is disgusted by dhammas, he is disgusted by the mana·viññāṇa, he is disgusted by mana·phassa, he is disgusted by vedanā. Being disgusted, he gets detached. Being detached, he gets liberated. Being liberated, he understands: 'upādāna has been completely understood by me'.

This, Bhikkhus, is the Dhamma for the complete understanding of all upādāna.

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samy ... 5-060.html
I take from this sutta, that most of us beings really misapprehend consciousness to be either 'me' or 'mine', when really it's just part of the process described above (I don't know that for sure as yet, just to be clear). It's kind of disturbing, in a groovy kind of way. :shock:

metta
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
pegembara
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by pegembara »

There is no free floating consciousness. All consciousness is dependently coarisen. There is no consciousness that exist apart from its object even if its object is consciousness itself.
Put in another way - To be aware/conscious, one has to be aware/conscious of something! Without the object, there is no subject.
"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
Sheaves of Reed
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“Good, bhikkhus. It is good that you understand the Dhamma taught by me thus. For in many ways I have stated consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness.

“Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises. When consciousness arises dependent on the eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds, it is reckoned as ear-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the nose and odours, [260] it is reckoned as nose-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the tongue and flavours, it is reckoned as tongue-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the body and tangibles, it is reckoned as body-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the mind and mind-objects, it is reckoned as mind-consciousness.

http://www.palicanon.org/index.php/sutt ... of-craving
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by pegembara »

Is there a hearer of sounds, separate from hearing and the heard? Where does hearing happen?

What actually hears? Where is the hearer located? Is it the eardrum, ear ossicles, cochlea, auditory nerve or brain? What is heard is nothing but vibrations. The "hearer" is an activity, not an entity.
Really there is no ear either apart from its parts. This is a heap of sheer constructions: Here no ear is found. Pure emptiness/sunyata.

Image
On account of the ear and sounds, ear-viññāṇa arises. The meeting of the three is phassa. Phassa·paccayā vedanā. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a sutavā ariyasāvaka is disgusted by the ear, he is disgusted by sounds, he is disgusted by the ear-viññāṇa, he is disgusted by ear-phassa, he is disgusted by vedanā. Being disgusted, he gets detached. Being detached, he gets liberated. Being liberated, he understands: 'upādāna has been completely understood by me'.
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samy ... 5-060.html
Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.

Vajira Sutta
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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manas
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by manas »

The idea of a magic show, is to trick people into seeing something that isn't really happening, or isn't really there; it's about illusion. I'm not sure as to why the Buddha likened consciousness to this, but it could be that it kind of appears out of the meeting between sense and object (including mind and mind object), yet the impression almost everyone has (myself included, alas) it that "I am conscious, or "it is my consciousness". So, we are kind of tricked.

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
starter
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Re: What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show?

Post by starter »

manas wrote:The idea of a magic show, is to trick people into seeing something that isn't really happening, or isn't really there; it's about illusion. I'm not sure as to why the Buddha likened consciousness to this, but it could be that it kind of appears out of the meeting between sense and object (including mind and mind object), yet the impression almost everyone has (myself included, alas) it that "I am conscious, or "it is my consciousness". So, we are kind of tricked.
I agree. This is what I meant in my first post of this thread. The sense of "self" is an illusion, the result of the "magic show" of consciousness due to avija. The defiled mind misinterprets and grasps the six sense consciousness and the other aggregates as "self". ... Why did the Buddha teach us that the mind consciousness is a "magic show"? As soon as sense consciousness is generated and the mind becomes aware of an "external" object, it discriminates this object from itself as separate and other than itself, and differentiate between itself as the subject and the sensed "external" (separated) as the object, which creates a sense of "self". It grasps the five aggregates as "self" because they are "internal" (non-separated) from it.

By the way, I like "mental phenomena" better than "mind objects"; mind objects can be body and etc.

Thanks and metta!
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