Heavens to betsy

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Heavens to betsy

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:17 pm

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:12 pm

I'd really like to know what the monks are chanting.
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby Fede » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:27 pm

:broke:

"We're in the money! We're in the money!"

Gracious me that really is a limit.....!
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:40 pm

Fede wrote::broke:

"We're in the money! We're in the money!"

Gracious me that really is a limit.....!


teehee :lol:
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:18 pm

From the article:

"Many Thais say that the true spirit of Buddhism is being lost."
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby SeerObserver » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:33 pm

Drolma wrote:I'd really like to know what the monks are chanting.

You struck my curiosity enough. I wasn't going to watch the video at first. I skipped through it to check a few points, but didn't see anywhere in the video that there wasn't the narrator or anything else drowning out the chanting. Please let me know if there is a point in time where this is not the case and I'd be happy to try and help.

What I could make out didn't seem to be any chants I'm familiar with, but since they were pretty drowned out I can't say that for sure.
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:41 pm

Greetings,

Peter wrote:"Many Thais say that the true spirit of Buddhism is being lost."


I hope they keep saying it too... and point to what that true spirit is.

:buddha2:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby DhammaDan » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:48 pm

Peter wrote:From the article:

"Many Thais say that the true spirit of Buddhism is being lost."


I'm glad they see it too. Soon they'll have a Thai Reformation...which will only cause more problems. =p But I sure hope they get their act together. May they all be well. _/|\_
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:54 pm

This isn't particularly special, apart from the coffins it sounds like what I've seen at the local Wat. Here the lay person just disappears under a sheet, the monks chant some of the funeral chants about "sankhara anicca...", then they come out and the monks chant some sort of birth chant.

As far as I can understand, people do it here to "turn over a new leaf", etc, when they want to "turn their life around". Of course it might be more effective for them to do a meditation retreat, but I think there is a place for ritual as long as one appreciates it for what it is. At least they make some merit by making a donation...

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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:58 pm

Greetings

mikenz66 wrote:At least they make some merit by making a donation...

I wonder about the potential demerit of those performing the ceremonies.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:10 am

I know someone who uses a coffin for a coffee table as a reminder of impermanence. Frankly, I don't feel it's fair to rush to judgment without knowing exactly what the monks are chanting, and how the experience of lying in a coffin is affecting people. That's my two cents.
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby SeerObserver » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:16 am

mikenz66 wrote:This isn't particularly special, apart from the coffins it sounds like what I've seen at the local Wat. Here the lay person just disappears under a sheet, the monks chant some of the funeral chants about "sankhara anicca...", then they come out and the monks chant some sort of birth chant.

As far as I can understand, people do it here to "turn over a new leaf", etc, when they want to "turn their life around". Of course it might be more effective for them to do a meditation retreat, but I think there is a place for ritual as long as one appreciates it for what it is. At least they make some merit by making a donation...

Metta
Mike

This?
Rupapadanak-khando
Vedanupadanak-khando
Sannupadanak-khando
Sankharupadanak-khando
Vinnanupadanak-khando
Yesam parinnaya
Dharmano so bhagava
Evam bahulam savake vineti
Evam bhaga ca panassa bhagavato savakesu anusani bahula pavattati

Rupam aniccam
Vedana anicca
Sanna anicca
Sankhara anicca
Vinnanam aniccam
Rupam anatta
Vedana anatta
Sanna anatta
Sankhara anatta
Vinanam anatta

I might have another look at that video and see if I can make that out somewhere. I'm really not familiar with this ritual at all.
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:25 am

retrofuturist wrote:I wonder about the potential demerit of those performing the ceremonies.

I can't speak for the case in the news, but for the regular ceremony that I described I don't see why there should there be demerit for the monks any more than there would be demerit with the other ceremonies, such as when the monks chant blessing when the lay people offer them food. In either case the lay people make an offering and (implicitly in the regular offering case) ask for a protective chant.

If the monks were turning it into a lucrative business for their own gain by their own planning then that would be a different issue, but generally lay people look after fund-raising issues...

Perhaps some of our Monastics could comment.

Metta
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby appicchato » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:04 am

Drolma wrote:I don't feel it's fair to rush to judgment without knowing exactly what the monks are chanting...

Not to single you out here Drolma...Whatever they're chanting, what difference does it make?...the people don't know what it means...and being Pali there's a real good chance the monk doesn't know either...I know I'm asking for a flameout here, but that's the view from this angle... :popcorn:
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:40 am

Hi Bhante,

Thank you for your feedback :anjali:


edited: rest of post deleted due to lack of relevance.
Last edited by Ngawang Drolma. on Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:44 am

Truly dealing with the truth of change and impermanence can bring great comfort in a time of stress. Knowing that things will pass is a nice reminder. That's what I mean to say :smile:
Last edited by Ngawang Drolma. on Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby salmon » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:53 am

Whatever it does, it's so good, a movie was made about it :rofl:

The Coffin


ps. dunno about the spiritual value of the show...but the lead actor is cute! :jumping:
(oops...gotta watch my attachment to sensual pleasures there...heehee)
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:45 am

i didnt click on the link but ive read the posts so i think i know what youre talking about. a thai guy gets under a sheet and is reborn while monks chant. this is a symbolic ritual. the person being reborn is going through a change in life the ritual helps to "bring it home". probably helps one's resolve much more than a drunken new year's resolution. i think the monks chant abhidhamma stuff as thats whats chanted at funerals in thailand (i think).
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:47 am

oh i read it, they use coffins not sheets, but i think it's the same ritual.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Heavens to betsy

Postby christopher::: » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:01 am

Drolma wrote:Truly dealing with the truth of change and impermanence can bring great comfort in a time of stress. Knowing that things will pass is a nice reminder...


Definitely!

From the article:

Jirapat Winarungruang, 37, a lawyer, came one recent day to complete a transformation that he began four years ago when he changed his name from the less auspicious Suthep Wina. His new name includes the suffix rungruang, which means prosperity.

Fifty percent of a person’s destiny is determined by his name, Mr. Jirapat said, and the other 50 percent by his date of birth. When he arose from the coffin, born again, he said, the last vestiges of the old Suthep Wina would be gone.


Sounds like these are symbolic ways of recognizing something that in some sense could be true (is true?) at any given time?

The only potential limitation/drawback here might be that (for most of us) it takes more then name changes and pink coffins to be released from the last vestiges of old illusions...

If some are helped though, wonderful.

:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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