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Reincarnation - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Reincarnation

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:16 am

Greetings,

More words bundled under the banner of English banner of "rebirth"...

abhinibbatti
punabbhava
upapannā
opapātikā
upapajjati
upapatti
sopapajjati
ponobhavika
upapatti-bhava
patisandhi
jati

.... I wonder if any mean "reincarnation"?

Whatever they do mean, I doubt they all mean exactly the same thing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Dan74
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby Dan74 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:42 am

_/|\_

chownah
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby chownah » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:05 pm

I really didn't expect to get the kinds of replies that are being posted.....I don't know just what I expected but so far I feel lost in the thread I started....it's probably mostly that I guess I didn't define the topic well enough or else there are aspects to it which I am not following well.

I thought that reincarnation and rebirth would not need defining...so here is what I see as the main points which are relevant to what I'm trying to get at.
Reincarnation is the belief that there are spirits, souls, personalities, selves which incarnate (manifest in a body) from time to time......that is a soul which for example after the death of one body will after a time (or perhaps immediately) re-establish itself in another body. The key idea here is an eternal soul/spirit/self which can exist without a body but which manifests in a body form time to time.
Rebirth is what the Buddha taught....there is no soul/spirit/self involved as far as I have been able to tell from what the Buddha taught primarily in that the Buddha taught to have no doctrine of self whatever which sort of rules out the soul/spirit/self idea. (there are other reasons too)

So....what I'm trying to get at is that an understanding of rebirth must be coincident with an understanding of the not-self teachings and the "have no doctrine of self whatever" teachings. My view is that the reason for this is that unless one is holding no doctrine of self whatever then it is unlikely or perhaps inevitable that what one will ideate when considering "rebirth" would actually be "reincarnation"....it seems to me that unless the self has been penetrated then rebirth can not be understood and the mind will go toward reincarnation instead.

Maybe this is clearer....maybe not....
chownah

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Re: Reincarnation

Postby Mawkish1983 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:37 pm

I think I see what you are saying, Chownah. My thinking is that anyone can have mistaken views of life and death; even a monk who has practiced his whole life. If a view of reincarnation is held by someone and through that view they try to live more ethically and try to practice mindfulness and try to follow what they understand the Buddha to have taught, it isn't unskillful. Clinging to the wrong view would be unskillful, but just having a wrong view isn't the end of the world (I think everyone has some wrong views except those who have attained Nibbana). Some views are more wrong that others, and some lend themselves to clinging.

Maybe what you understand as rebirth isn't as wrong as what others understand as reincarnation, but maybe there are better understandings than yours. I don't mean that insensitively, I have no doubt my own understand is far from correct.

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Re: Reincarnation

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:23 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:30 pm


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Re: Reincarnation

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:35 pm


chownah
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby chownah » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:15 am


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Re: Reincarnation

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:20 am

Thanks for clarifying, Chownah. I think that is an interesting idea to discuss in more detail. I'll think about it first...

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:27 am

Greetings,

Excellent, Chownah.

:clap:

Well said!

Simply calling it "rebirth", but thinking "reincarnation" (due to being putthujana) is simply accommodating an eternalistic thought that ought not be brought to mind.

Perhaps it's better not to think of future lives at all, for this reason. (This is my approach)

"If a bhikkhu is absorbed in speculation about the other world, then his mind is obsessed." (MN 48)

Chownah ~ if you've not read anything by him before, I'd strongly encourage you to investigate the works of Bhikkhu Nanananda. He approaches the Dhamma and matters like bhava from a deep, subtle perspective, and I think you'll find his insights complementary to your investigations.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Reincarnation

Postby alan » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:45 am

One hundred dollars to the first person who can decipher what chownah said, and make it sound reasonable.

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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:49 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Reincarnation

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:52 am


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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:54 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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ground
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby ground » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:55 am

So what then is actually the meaning of what the Buddha taught and what is conventionally translated as "re-birth"?
From what has been written so far it may appear that it is easy to say what it is not but then what is it?
Why would the Buddha teach using speach and concepts when that the concepts shall refer to cannot be grasped conceptually?


Kind regards

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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:58 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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ground
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby ground » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:59 am

Why has he taught about hells and lower birth states resulting from wrongdoing? Fear mongering and fooling his audience?


Kind regards

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Re: Reincarnation

Postby ground » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:07 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Reincarnation

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:21 am


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Re: Reincarnation

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:23 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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