In the absence of vinnana there is...?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Tilt,

Their goal? And their goals not the Buddha's goals?

Me not being them, it's not for me to say.

In other words, one is stuck with the "I" until there is awakening.

If one wishes to communicate effectively, such self-reference is unavoidable. Even the Buddha was "stuck with" that.

On the other hand, revelling in putthujana ignorance by wallowing in I-making is avoidable, by recourse the Noble Eightfold Path.

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Greetings Tilt,

Their goal? And their goals not the Buddha's goals?

Me not being them, it's not for me to say.

But you certainly seem to say, in your criticisms of of things of which you do not approve such as the three-life paticcasamuppada and the bhanavanga-sota notion.

In other words, one is stuck with the "I" until there is awakening.

If one wishes to communicate effectively, such self-reference is unavoidable. Even the Buddha was "stuck with" that.

On the other hand, revelling in putthujana ignorance by wallowing in I-making is avoidable, by recourse the Noble Eightfold Path.

No one here is advocating reveling in "I-making" ignorance, and the Abhidhammikas certainly were not nor were the commentators.

[mikenz66]

Whether others agree with me on such matters is up to them, but it's nice when people take the effort to listen to and comprehend the points I'm making and can then evaluate what I'm saying against their own criteria, rather than just yield a instinctive reaction to what they think I'm saying....

I'll take that as a compliment then.

Having listened and made an effort to comprehend, I agree with some bits and pieces, and not others. What you say about your approach seems to have a very analytical focus. A focus on proving a particular point of view. And unfortunately it often comes across as being reactionary because rather than simply discussing what you've learned you seem to be determined to prove that other possibilities are not correct. If you are going to argue that other approaches are incorrect, then you have to also be willing to engage with counter-arguments, and not just dismiss them as "instinctive reactions".


Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Tilt,

But you certainly seem to say, in your criticisms of of things of which you do not approve such as the three-life paticcasamuppada and the bhanavanga-sota notion.

This is a Buddhist forum - I can comment on what I like within the boundaries of the Terms Of Service. Is there a purpose to your line of questioning in the context of this topic, or is it just contrarianism?

No one here is advocating reveling in "I-making" ignorance, and the Abhidhammikas certainly were not nor were the commentators.

I don't believe they advocate it, but the consequences of following such schemas may be akin to what was discussed in Chownah's recent "reincarnation" topic. Namely that regardless of intention, because of existing avijja, people can interpret post-Buddha teachings and words in ways which actually run counter to the Buddha's message.

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Whether others agree with me on such matters is up to them, but it's nice when people take the effort to listen to and comprehend the points I'm making and can then evaluate what I'm saying against their own criteria, rather than just yield a instinctive reaction to what they think I'm saying....

I have been at this longer than you have been alive. I am well aware of the points you are making, and because I do not agree with your rigid intellectual phenomanalisam does not mean that I am indulging in an "instinctive reaction to what they think I'm saying." Things are not ever so black and white as you are painting them.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

you have to also be willing to engage with counter-arguments, and not just dismiss them as "instinctive reactions".

I like counter-arguments, and welcome them... I believe the quality of topics would benefit from on-topic counter-arguments and would like to see more of them.

Metta,
Retro.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Tilt,

I have been at this longer than you have been alive. I am well aware of the points you are making, and because I do not agree with your rigid intellectual phenomanalisam does not mean that I am indulging in an "instinctive reaction to what they think I'm saying." Things are not ever so black and white as you are painting them.

Present positively framed on-topic counter-arguments then, rather than incessant pokes.

rigid intellectual phenomanalisam

"Rigid intellectual"ism applies more to the scholastic formation of concepts/ideas (such as bhavanga-citta) which by definition, cannot be experienced... and then constructing one's world view around one's own intellectual scaffolding (sankharas).

Metta,
Retro.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Perhaps we can get...



Freefall asked, "Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?"

I've presented an argument to say "no"... I feel I've taken this argument as far as it needs to go. People can decide whether it is satisfactory or not, according to their reason and experience.

Does anyone have a counter-argument to present?

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Greetings Tilt,

I have been at this longer than you have been alive. I am well aware of the points you are making, and because I do not agree with your rigid intellectual phenomanalisam does not mean that I am indulging in an "instinctive reaction to what they think I'm saying." Things are not ever so black and white as you are painting them.

Present positively framed on-topic counter-arguments then, rather than incessant pokes.

That would be excellent advice for you to follow, given your incessant pokes at commentarial Buddhism. This very thread came about from an unnecessary and inappropriate poke by you at the commentarial tradition in the "Discovering Theravada" section.

"Rigid intellectual"ism applies more to the scholastic formation of concepts/ideas (such as bhavanga-citta) which by definition, cannot be experienced... and then constructing one's world view around one's own intellectual scaffolding (sankharas).

He said, making a poke. Maybe you might try to understand the standpoint and context of the originators of the bhavanga notion and what role it actually plays before you criticize it, before you actually dismiss it, as you have the Abhidhamma, as running counter to the Buddha's teachings.

[Ben]

Greetings,

Perhaps we can get...



Freefall asked, "Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?"

I've presented an argument to say "no"... I feel I've taken this argument as far as it needs to go. People can decide whether it is satisfactory or not, according to their reason and experience.

Does anyone have a counter-argument to present?

Metta,
Retro.

And I would answer "yes". And I know this from direct experience - as has others.
kind regards

Ben

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Tilt,

This very thread came about from an unnecessary and inappropriate poke by you at the commentarial tradition in the "Discovering Theravada" section..

I disagree. The sutta perspective explained by Walpola Rahula was irreconcilable with the Abhidhammic notion of a citta devoid of object. That's not an "unnecessary and inappropriate poke"... that's highlighting an inconsistency, one which no one seems interested in resolving.

Maybe you might try to understand the standpoint and context of the originators of the bhavanga notion and what role it actually plays before you criticize it, before you actually dismiss it, as you have the Abhidhamma, as running counter to the Buddha's teachings.

Based on the Four Great References, I have negligible personal interest in any Buddhist school's Abhidhamma... but if you wish to present an on-topic counter-argument, showing either that:-

- The Abhidhamma is consistent with what Walpola Rahula presented about the Buddha's teachings on vinnana
- There is consciousness in deep sleep

... then the floor is open to you.

Metta,
Retro.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Ben,

Freefall asked, "Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?"

And I would answer "yes". And I know this from direct experience - as has others

This experience you refer to... is it mind-consciousness, body-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, ear-consciousness, eye-consciousness, or nose-consciousness? Or something else?

I would argue that if it is any of those listed, it does not qualify as the "deep sleep" being referred to, but rather, it is consciousness associated with an object.

Metta,
Retro.

[Ben]

Greetings Retro,
I question whether deep sleep is actually consciousness with no object.
kind regards

Ben

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Ben,

Is your thought that it might be:

- consciousness with object
- not consciousness



Metta,
Retro.

[Ben]

consciousness with object