In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:This very thread came about from an unnecessary and inappropriate poke by you at the commentarial tradition in the "Discovering Theravada" section..
I disagree. The sutta perspective explained by Walpola Rahula was irreconcilable with the Abhidhammic notion of a citta devoid of object. That's not an "unnecessary and inappropriate poke"... that's highlighting an inconsistency, one which no one seems interested in resolving.
The section is "Discovering Theravada." Theravada -- by definition -- includes the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. That there are later, minority, positions that are critical of the more traditional position is fine, but they are better discuissed in a different section.
tiltbillings wrote:Maybe you might try to understand the standpoint and context of the originators of the bhavanga notion and what role it actually plays before you criticize it, before you actually dismiss it, as you have the Abhidhamma, as running counter to the Buddha's teachings.
Based on the Four Great References, I have negligible personal interest in any Buddhist school's Abhidhamma... but if you wish to present an on-topic counter-argument, showing either that:
If you are going to criticize a point of view, it is up to you to show that you have a good handle on what that point of view is actually about, otherwise it is naught more than a strawman criticism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:The section is "Discovering Theravada." Theravada -- by definition -- includes the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. That there are later, minority, positions that are critical of the more traditional position is fine, but they are better discuissed in a different section.
When the Suttas and Abhidhammic Commentary are at odds, as they are here (unless anyone wishes to attempt the still unattempted reconciliation), there is no one single definitive Theravada position to provide. It is entirely appropriate to present the different views that exist within the spectrum of Theravada, because it is the Discovering Theravada forum, not the Discovering Mahavihara forum.
tiltbillings wrote:If you are going to criticize a point of view, it is up to you to show that you have a good handle on what that point of view is actually about, otherwise it is naught more than a strawman criticism.
Just because I don't follow it in my practice or give it much credence, doesn't mean I haven't investigated it. I have read texts like A Manual Of Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga and some of Nina Van Gorkom's works so I'm certainly not unfamiliar with the concepts. I think those readings alone (let alone other readings done in the Abhidhamma space) are sufficient by way of investigation to allow me to wager an opinion. If you wish to demonstrate that I have understood them incorrectly, then please present your counter arguments, or hold your peace.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by octathlon »

Just coming in and can't read through every post, but
"Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?"
I would like to know what is the evidence for the original assumption, that there are no mental formations during deep sleep. I don't think we can just assume that because we don't "remember" them after waking up that they didn't occur. Did I miss that part of the thread?
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:consciousness with object
In this case, what is the object, bearing in mind the following?
SN 35.23 - Sabba Sutta wrote:"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Octathlon,
octathlon wrote:Just coming in and can't read through every post, but
"Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?"
I would like to know what is the evidence for the original assumption, that there are no mental formations during deep sleep. I don't think we can just assume that because we don't "remember" them after waking up that they didn't occur. Did I miss that part of the thread?
The original post in this topic contains a link to the original topic in the Discovering Theravada forum from which it spawned.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:The section is "Discovering Theravada." Theravada -- by definition -- includes the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. That there are later, minority, positions that are critical of the more traditional position is fine, but they are better discuissed in a different section.
When the Suttas and Abhidhammic Commentary are at odds, as they are here (unless anyone wishes to attempt the still unattempted reconciliation), there is no one single definitive Theravada position to provide. It is entirely appropriate to present the different views that exist within the spectrum of Theravada, because it is the Discovering Theravada forum, not the Discovering Mahavihara forum.
Then you should not complain when someone snipes at your snipes.
tiltbillings wrote:If you are going to criticize a point of view, it is up to you to show that you have a good handle on what that point of view is actually about, otherwise it is naught more than a strawman criticism.
Just because I don't follow it in my practice or give it much credence, doesn't mean I haven't investigated it. I have read texts like A Manual Of Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga and some of Nina Van Gorkom's works so I'm certainly not unfamiliar with the concepts. I think those readings alone (let alone other readings done in the Abhidhamma space) are sufficient by way of investigation to allow me to wager an opinion. If you wish to demonstrate that I have understood them incorrectly, then please present your counter arguments, or hold your peace.
That is nice that you have read all those things, but the point is that, before dismissing a point of view out of hand such as the bhavanga, you should be able to make the argument for that point of view, showing that you actually understand it. That you have not done, not even close. The question is, for you, can a traditional Theravadin find awakening, or are they all -- to use your words -- wallowing in "I-making?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by octathlon »

Oh dear. So these 5-pages-in-one-day are only the tip of the iceberg? OK, I will just say "body & tactile sensations" are present and get out of y'all's way.
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by tiltbillings »

octathlon wrote:Just coming in and can't read through every post, but
"Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?"
I would like to know what is the evidence for the original assumption, that there are no mental formations during deep sleep. I don't think we can just assume that because we don't "remember" them after waking up that they didn't occur. Did I miss that part of the thread?
Actually, sleep is not so much the issue, it is what is found in this text in this msg:


http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p147236" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is a an issue that Buddhist have looked at with some interest.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Then you should not complain when someone snipes at your snipes.
If I have presented an illogical or ill-founded argument or conclusion at any point in this conversation, I open the floor to anyone to provide a counter-argument that addresses the argument in question. Please Tilt, be my guest.
tiltbillings wrote:That is nice that you have read all those things, but the point is that, before dismissing a point of view out of hand such as the bhavanga, you should be able to make the argument for that point of view, showing that you actually understand it.
Make an argument for the opposing point of view? That's a new one. I'm happy to explain or define it as accurately as I can, but I'm not going to put forward arguments in favour of something I don't believe. That would be hypocritical and against the conventions of debate. (You may observe that my original post, which you found so inappropriate, contained a full dictionary-sourced defintion of bhavanga-citta)
tiltbillings wrote:The question is, for you, can a traditional Theravadin find awakening, or are they all -- to use your words -- wallowing in "I-making?"
Given my inability to penetrate their minds in order to know what they're thinking and how they're interpreting what they read of the Dhamma, I don't see how I could answer that. I doubt anyone's Dhammic path involves intentional wallowing in "I-making", nor does the Theravada tradition teach the wallowing in "I-making"... some parts just seem more actively geared against that "I-making" tendency than others.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Then you should not complain when someone snipes at your snipes.
If I have presented an illogical or ill-founded argument or conclusion at any point in this conversation, I open the floor to anyone to provide a counter-argument that addresses the argument in question. Please Tilt, be my guest.
Counter-arguments have been presented.
tiltbillings wrote:That is nice that you have read all those things, but the point is that, before dismissing a point of view out of hand such as the bhavanga, you should be able to make the argument for that point of view, showing that you actually understand it.
Make an argument for the opposing point of view? That's a new one.
It is standard debating procedure to show that you are presenting the actual argument of the opponent.

tiltbillings wrote:The question is, for you, can a traditional Theravadin find awakening, or are they all -- to use your words -- wallowing in "I-making?"
Given my inability to penetrate their minds in order to know what they're thinking and how they're interpreting what they read of the Dhamma, I don't see how I could answer that. I doubt anyone's Dhammic path involves intentional wallowing in "I-making", nor does the Theravada tradition teach the wallowing in "I-making"... some parts just seem more actively geared against that "I-making" tendency than others.
But you have not shown that these supposed "some parts" are more prone to "I-making." You have stated that, repeatedly, but that is not an argument, which means there is not really much to respond to.

But the general point in this paragraph of yours should not be lost: 'the Theravada tradition teach the wallowing in "I-making"'.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:But you have not shown that these supposed "some parts" are more prone to "I-making." You have stated that, repeatedly, but that is not an argument, which means there is not really much to respond to.
Well I did say "seem", as I was presenting a subjective perception moreso than an objective and falsifiable argument.

But since you raise it, and since you advised Octathlon a few posts ago that you believe the central issue pertains to the matter of continuity, what continuity do you feel it is imperative to maintain or explain in the context of the Dhamma?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:But you have not shown that these supposed "some parts" are more prone to "I-making." You have stated that, repeatedly, but that is not an argument, which means there is not really much to respond to.
Well I did say "seem", as I was presenting a subjective perception moreso than an objective and falsifiable argument.
That is true.
But since you raise it, and since you advised Octathlon a few posts ago that you believe the central issue pertains to the matter of continuity, what continuity do you feel it is imperative to maintain or explain in the context of the Dhamma?
If there is no causal/conditioned continuity of any sort, then there is no awakening. But it depends upon what is meant by continuity. How are you using the word?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:If there is no causal/conditioned continuity of any sort, then there is no awakening.
I don't think there's any disagreement here.

Setting aside the "soul" aspect of the following quotation, and focusing on "the world" (loka), the Brahamajala Sutta explains the wrong view of the world arising without cause.
'There are, monks, some recluses and Brahmans who are Fortuitous-Originists, and who in two ways maintain that the soul and the world arise without a cause. And on what ground, starting out from what, do they do so?

'There are, monks, certain gods called Unconscious Beings. As soon as an idea occurs to them they fall from that state. Now it may well be, monks, that a being, on falling from that state, should come to this world; and having come to this world he might go forth from the household life into the homeless state. And having thus become a recluse he, by reason of ardour and so on (as in the other cases) reaches such a state of concentration that, rapt in heart, he calls to mind how that idea occurred to him, but not more than that. He says to himself: "Fortuitous in origin are the soul and the world. And why so? Because formerly I was not, but now am. Having not been, I have come to be."

'This, monks, is the first state of things on account of which, starting out from which some recluses and Brahmans become Fortuitous-Originists, and maintain that the soul and the world arise without a cause.

'And what is the second?

In this case, monks, some recluse or Brahman is addicted to logic and reasoning. He comes to the following conclusion, beaten out by his argumentations, and based on his sophistry: "The soul and the world arose without a cause."

'This, monks, is the second case.
Source: http://www.leighb.com/dn1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Loka arises in accordance with the processes explained by the suttas referenced earlier in this topic.
tiltbillings wrote:But it depends upon what is meant by continuity. How are you using the word?
You're welcome to select another word if that would be more amenable... but what I'm pointing to is continuity of x over time, where x is any component or classification of sentient life. Or if you prefer, what is the actual problem/situation that notions like "storehouse consciousness", "bhavanga citta" and such are attempting to resolve/explain?

To what extent is it imperative to maintain or explain continuity of x over time, in the context of the Dhamma?

As I understand it, the Abhidhamma is attempting to demonstrate that one moment of consciousness is a necessary causal factor for the next moment of consciousness... and it uses concepts like "bhavanga citta" to fill the gaps in (sutta-defined, experienced) consciousness to form what is commonly called the "stream of consciousness".

Do you believe these gaps need to be filled in the interests of explaining the ensuing continuity or conditionality in the context of the Dhamma?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by Ben »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:consciousness with object
In this case, what is the object, bearing in mind the following?
SN 35.23 - Sabba Sutta wrote:"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Metta,
Retro. :)
All of them.
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

If they are all experienced, then that is fine... they certainly qualify as vinnana.

:thumbsup:

Earlier I gave an example of a typical night's sleep - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... =0#p147217" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - and how that will consist of moments of the six-consciousnesses.

In the past I have actually had quite lucid experiences, even occasionally becoming aware that what is being experienced is a dream, and then paying mindful-attention satipatthana style, to the dream being experienced and its characteristics. Such experiences are certainly consciousness, regardless of how "deep" or otherwise someone might define the sleep.

On the flipside to those more lucid moments however, do you believe there are moments of non-consciousness, where there is no consciousness definable with reference to the six strands of consciousness? In other words, that there are "gaps" in consciousness, where consciousness is not experienced? (Experience of a dhamma being fundamental to something actually being a dhamma).

Or, as hypothesized by some others earlier in the topic, that there is a continuity of consciousness experienced with respect to the six-senses, but that it is just not remembered in the morning?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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