In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by Ben »

Hi Paul
Yes, I read your earlier post. What I would ask you to consider is that perhaps those 'gap' times - consciousness is still present and is averting to this or that object. The fact that you are not presently aware (at the time of the experience) nor can you recall the experience does not indicate to me that consciousness and object were not present. Often on retreat I meditate throughout sleep from 9.30PM to 4AM. Sometimes it happens in daily life. If deep sleep was truely without consciousness then how does one explain one's tossing and turning, or manufacturing a dream around an external noise such as an alarm clock, or people doing strange things like sleep walking or having conversations in their sleep? I don't think they are disturbances as you alluded to earlier, I do think that consciousness is continuing to tick over during sleep and is averting to the dominant sensory object at the time.
Anyway, I've got trees to plant....
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:What I would ask you to consider is that perhaps those 'gap' times - consciousness is still present and is averting to this or that object. The fact that you are not presently aware (at the time of the experience) nor can you recall the experience does not indicate to me that consciousness and object were not present.
Sure, but if there is never awareness of it (neither then at the time, nor afterwards), such a suggestion can neither be proved, nor disproved. Or if you prefer, never known to be true, never known to be false.

That is essentially my point in this topic... if there is no awareness of any consciousness, then there is no personal experience by which such cittas could ever be verified or refuted - making it, by definition, speculative. Not being connected to experience, it is not connected to the fundamental Dhamma matters of dukkha and nirodha, and is therefore not relevant to the Dhamma either. Hence, why the Buddha did not teach it.

Yet despite its speculativeness and irrelevance, seemingly all schools of Buddhist thought insisted on speculating upon the irrelevant... and as happens when speculation is involved, they all came up with different speculative interpretations and argued with each other about whose speculative interpretation was correct.

We can pick a side, or opt out of the speculation altogether. I choose the latter option.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Travis
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:22 pm

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by Travis »

:goodpost:
Now... :zzz:
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by Ben »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:What I would ask you to consider is that perhaps those 'gap' times - consciousness is still present and is averting to this or that object. The fact that you are not presently aware (at the time of the experience) nor can you recall the experience does not indicate to me that consciousness and object were not present.
Sure, but if there is never awareness of it (neither then at the time, nor afterwards), such a suggestion can neither be proved, nor disproved. Or if you prefer, never known to be true, never known to be false.

That is essentially my point in this topic... if there is no awareness of any consciousness, then there is no personal experience by which such cittas could ever be verified or refuted - making it, by definition, speculative. Not being connected to experience, it is not connected to the fundamental Dhamma matters of dukkha and nirodha, and is therefore not relevant to the Dhamma either. Hence, why the Buddha did not teach it.
Ahh with respect, I disagree. It is interesting to note that during sleep one responds to irritation, coldness, pressure on the bladder and a whole variety of other sensory data. And in the morning, one may not recollect its occurance. So, what is going on if there is no consciousness?
retrofuturist wrote:We can pick a side, or opt out of the speculation altogether. I choose the latter option.
I am not speculating, Retro.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:Ahh with respect, I disagree. It is interesting to note that during sleep one responds to irritation, coldness, pressure on the bladder and a whole variety of other sensory data. And in the morning, one may not recollect its occurance. So, what is going on if there is no consciousness?
They are all examples of consciousness associated with the six-senses! :tongue:

That all goes without saying - such blatant examples of consciousness which accord with the Buddha's teachings on consciousness are not what this topic about. It's about those moments in time during sleep where there is no conscious awareness of anything... are there "sub-conscious" cittas going on such as the bhavanga-citta of the Abhidhamma, and if so how does anyone ever know that is so, if it's below the threshhold of vinnana?

In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Setting aside the "soul" aspect of the following quotation, and focusing on "the world" (loka), the Brahamajala Sutta explains the wrong view of the world arising without cause.
'There are, monks, some recluses . . . .
Loka arises in accordance with the processes explained by the suttas referenced earlier in this topic.
What is your point here?
tiltbillings wrote:But it depends upon what is meant by continuity. How are you using the word?
You're welcome to select another word if that would be more amenable... but what I'm pointing to is continuity of x over time, where x is any component or classification of sentient life. Or if you prefer, what is the actual problem/situation that notions like "storehouse consciousness", "bhavanga citta" and such are attempting to resolve/explain?
This is way too vague to respond to. You’ll need to clarify and expand a bit on what you are saying.
To what extent is it imperative to maintain or explain continuity of x over time, in the context of the Dhamma?
Again, how are you using “x”? Is the adult the same as the child? Is there something that continues unchanged over time? What are you getting at with your question?
As I understand it, the Abhidhamma is attempting to demonstrate that one moment of consciousness is a necessary causal factor for the next moment of consciousness... and it uses concepts like "bhavanaga citta" to fill the gaps in (sutta-defined, experienced) consciousness to form what is commonly called the "stream of consciousness". Do you believe these gaps need to be filled in the interests of explaining the ensuing continuity or conditionality in the context of the Dhamma?
You are admitting there are gaps?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
retrofuturist wrote:Loka arises in accordance with the processes explained by the suttas referenced earlier in this topic.
tiltbillings wrote:What is your point here?
That the "arising" of any possible dhamma or experience is already explained in the suttas. Neither "bhavanga-citta", nor even any "previous citta" is listed as such a cause for present dhammas or present vinnana in the suttas.
retrofuturist wrote:To what extent is it imperative to maintain or explain continuity of x over time, in the context of the Dhamma?
tiltbillings wrote:Again, how are you using “x”? Is the adult the same as the child? Is there something that continues unchanged over time? What are you getting at with your question?
Any of those are examples of what could be "x"... I wrote it as a general formula so that it could apply to any and all examples of "continuity". It's deliberately open ended, so that you, or someone else wishing to put forward a positive case in favour of bhavanga-citta supporting "continuity" can do so.
tiltbillings wrote:You are admitting there are gaps?
Gaps in vinnana, as described by the Buddha, yes.

In other words, there are times when there is no discernable coming together of:

- eye & forms
- ear & sounds
- nose & smells
- body & tactile sensations
- tongue & tastes
- mind & mental-objects

Is there other "stuff" still going on in the absence of such cognitive discernment? That's what I'm not speculating on.

Is that stuff "vinnana" according to the Buddha's definition in the suttas? No.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by Ben »

retrofuturist wrote:no conscious awareness of anything
Well, I think it depends on what you mean by awareness. To me, I think we are coming at the term from two very different understandings.
retrofuturist wrote:In the absence of vinnana there is...?
Beyond here lies nothing (Bob Dylan)

Paul, when you spend some extended time practicing samatha day-in day-out you unveil the processes going on in the subconscious. Just because you are not being beaten over the head by some sensory data that forces you to give it undivided attention, does not mean there isn't stuff going on or vinnana isn't averting to the sensory input.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by Sylvester »

A possible process explanation for fully unconscious sleep (if it exists) - the total absence of "corresponding engagement" (tajjo sammanaharo) in such sleep periods.

A possible explanation for why we cannot recollect every sleeping moment - the absence of sati in sleep.

As Ven Analayo would explain it, sati is simply the sustained presence of manasikara. As the Commentaries would have it, tajjo sammanaharo is manasikara.

So, upon what is manasikara dependant to establish phassa when one is first "conscious" of waking from sleep?
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
retrofuturist wrote:Loka arises in accordance with the processes explained by the suttas referenced earlier in this topic.
tiltbillings wrote:What is your point here?
That the "arising" of any possible dhamma or experience is already explained in the suttas. Neither "bhavanga-citta", nor even any "previous citta" is listed as such a cause for present dhammas in the suttas.
So, do explain how when the process of experience that has ceased arises again:
But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling." -- SN 41.6
retrofuturist wrote:To what extent is it imperative to maintain or explain continuity of x over time, in the context of the Dhamma?
tiltbillings wrote:Again, how are you using “x”? Is the adult the same as the child? Is there something that continues unchanged over time? What are you getting at with your question?
Any of those are examples of what could be "x"... I wrote it as a general formula so that it could apply to any and all examples of "continuity". It's deliberately open ended, so that you, or someone else wishing to put forward a positive case in favour of bhavanga-citta supporting "continuity" can do so.
Are you assuming that “x” is an unchanging thing? Or is “x” a conventional way of referring to something understood to be a process of conditioned/conditioning change?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:when you spend some extended time practicing samatha day-in day-out you unveil the processes going on in the subconscious.
Once 'unveiled' they are objects of vinnana. When not 'unveiled' they are not objects of vinnana.

This distinction is entirely independent of whether western psychology would define the object as being 'subconscious' or not.

That is how i understand vinnana in the Dhamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So, do explain how when the process of experience that has ceased arises again:
But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling." -- SN 41.6
Extract from MN 44: Culavedalla Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."
That is how it is explained in the suttas.
tiltbillings wrote:Are you assuming that “x” is an unchanging thing? Or is “x” a conventional way of referring to something understood to be a process of conditioned/conditioning change?
It's a moot point until someone indicates a willingness to frame a positive argument in favour of bhavanga-citta or storehouse consciousness. 117 posts in and no sign of anyone prepared to advocate for such post-Buddha creations.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:That is how it is explained in the suttas.
But it really does not explain why it happens; it merely describeds what happens. Big difference.
tiltbillings wrote:Are you assuming that “x” is an unchanging thing? Or is “x” a conventional way of referring to something understood to be a process of conditioned/conditioning change?
It's a moot point until someone indicates a willingness to frame a positive argument in favour of bhavanga-citta or storehouse consciousness.
You are assuming that bhavanga is a self thingie somehow? If so, on what basis? As for alaya vijnana, that is a Mahayana concept.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:That is how it is explained in the suttas.
But it really does not explain why it happens; it merely describeds what happens. Big difference.
Indeed... neither the Buddha nor his contemporaneous arahants felt the need to explain the mechanics. Perhaps there's something in that?
tiltbillings wrote:You are assuming that bhavanga is a self thingie somehow?
No.
tiltbillings wrote:As for alaya vijnana, that is a Mahayana concept.
I know... but it appears to me as if it's the Mahayana scholastic equivalent of the same thing... namely, the compulsion to define and explain a mechanism for the continuity of certain things over time.

However, the Buddha did not go to lengths to support continuity... his emphasis was on explaining disintegration.

SN 35.82: Loka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "'The world, the world' it is said. In what respect does the word 'world' apply?

"Insofar as it disintegrates, monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate...

"The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate...

"The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate...

"The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate...

"The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'"
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:That is how it is explained in the suttas.
But it really does not explain why it happens; it merely describeds what happens. Big difference.
Indeed... neither the Buddha nor his contemporaneous arahants felt the need to explain the mechanics. Perhaps there's something in that?
Maybe, but they did in other instances.
tiltbillings wrote:You are assuming that bhavanga is a self thingie somehow?
No.
Then, what is the problem?
tiltbillings wrote:As for alaya vijnana, that is a Mahayana concept.
I know... but it appears to me as if it's the Mahayana scholastic equivalent of the same thing... namely, the compulsion to define and explain a mechanism for the continuity of certain things over time.
You’ll need to take that up on Dharma Wheel.
However, the Buddha did not go to lengths to support continuity... his emphasis was on explaining disintegration. SN 35.82: Loka Sutta . . . .
You are pulling my leg here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply