Emptiness of time and others

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by DarwidHalim »

Ben wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote: That is the reality of orange. Indescribable. Other reality is also like that, indescribable.
No, I don't think so.
May I know which reality is descriable?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Ben
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by Ben »

DarwidHalim wrote:
Ben wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote: That is the reality of orange. Indescribable. Other reality is also like that, indescribable.
No, I don't think so.
May I know which reality is descriable?
Yes.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Pondera
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by Pondera »

DarwidHalim wrote:
Yes, you can define the taste. 1 million people can also define it. But, you will get 1 million version about the taste of orange. That definition is only true realtive to the one who makes the definition, not to others.

WHen you define sweet. Your sweetness and my sweetness are not same.

No matter how long you describe the taste of orange, I will not know what is that taste of orange before I actually eat it. Even, I ever ate other oranges. The taste is simply difference and beyond words.

That is the reality of orange. Indescribable. Other reality is also like that, indescribable.
It's true. You can talk and talk and talk to another person about a certain perception as long as you want. But unless the person has already experienced that perception, that person will never truly understand the "taste" of the object.

But you go even further to say that when two people have both experienced the "same" perception, they don't really experience the same thing .

You're correct in the first part.

But the statement "your sweetness is different than my sweetness" is incorrect.

Buddhists define sense perception in three ways. There's a great Wikipedia entry on this titled "Ayatana".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From Wikipedia:

"Aflame with lust, hate and delusion"

In "The Vipers" discourse (Asivisa Sutta, SN 35.197), the Buddha likens the internal sense bases to an "empty village" and the external sense bases to "village-plundering bandits." Using this metaphor, the Buddha characterizes the "empty"[21] sense organs as being "attacked by agreeable & disagreeable" sense objects.[22]

This is really too hard a concept to explain. My sweetness is the same as your sweetness because all things pertain to consciousness simultaneously. My consciousness exists in the same sphere of perception as your consciousness. Hence, even if I am watching something from the east and you are watching this same thing from the west we are both watching the same thing. It does not matter that you see the object from a different angle. It does not matter that you see the object as being large and I see it as being small. That object remains the source of our perceptions.

In other words, there are a million people with two million eyes, but there is still only one reality. There is still only one time. And I do in fact understand the principle of relativity; so when I say there is only one time I mean that even with the effects of gravity there is only one basis for change, upon which the universe exists, even if, because of the grossness of material objects, "swells" of gravitational potential come about and dissipate in various pockets of space.

Essentially, the understanding of this whole thing was best described by the Buddha with the comparison to an empty village. He ascribes emptiness to our sense faculties, and alludes to the fundamental nature of sense objects as having a sort of reality that really only pertains to our perceptions.

I could go on and on trying to explain the understanding of this concept, but the only way for someone to understand it is for that someone to empty their selves of ego, rid their selves of the conscious cling and then go ahead and perceive reality as it truly is. If you do that, rest assured, we will be able to agree that the world exists in a certain manner. It exists in so much as material objects cling to consciousness, consciousness clings to material objects, and material objects cling to perception.. -in so far as consciousness pervades both the perceptive faculties and the objects which we sense. Other than that I can't say anymore (thank heavens).

-Regards.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
lexybam
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by lexybam »

Buddhism theory might proves that there is no time, well that is for the believers of the theory, but the truth is that there is time in the life of man and we are all being guilsded and armed by that. For example, the writer used his iphone, but in a more sensible way, there is time to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner. If there is no time we probably would have not specified time for that.
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by DarwidHalim »

lexybam wrote:Buddhism theory might proves that there is no time, well that is for the believers of the theory, but the truth is that there is time in the life of man and we are all being guilsded and armed by that. For example, the writer used his iphone, but in a more sensible way, there is time to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner. If there is no time we probably would have not specified time for that.
We need to be very careful when we are touching the emptiness in buddhism.

For those who are not familiar with it, emptiness is equivalent to nothingness.

The teaching of emptiness according to 1 buddhist tradition is actually secret in the past. The main reason is it is extremely easy to be misunderstood. It happens to 1 king (i already forget the name). The monk explained to him emptiness, but he misunderstood it as nothingness. The king thoughts there are nothing, so he did so many bad things, and he end up in the hell.

In one of the vows, explaining emptiness to someone who are not ready will cause harm to the person who explains it.

What is negated in the emptiness is only 1 thing. And that thing is the self, essence, or identity. It doesn't negate the phenomena. It doesn't negate the show. It doesn't negate the display. It doesn't negate the appearance.

Same with time.

Emptiness of time doesn't mean we negate the show of time. We do not negate the display of time.

What is negated is the existance of self called time.

If we think this universe has something called time, this is what is negated.

If something really exists, it is necessary for us to grasp it so dearly. It makes sense and it is correct to hold it.
But, if that thing is not there, doesn't exist, we are grasping illusion. Where is the point?

For anyone who think time exist, they will soon or later feel tired in their journey to save all beings.

For Boddhisattva, they promise that:
"For as long as space endures, and for as long as living beings remain, until then may I too abide to dispel the misery of the world"

Bodhisattva is criple if he is deluded. Soon or later, he will collapse in his work to fulfil his promise.

If he doesn't have perfect mind free from illusions, if he cannot perceive this reality directly as what it is, which is empty of essence, he is joking to save all beings for as long as space endures.

When he fully realize the emptiness of time, he will never ever feel tired. He will never ever feel - I have done this for so many thousand thousand thousand thousand years, why there are still many beings in samsara? UNtil when I can finally finish it?

This kind of thinking will never ever appear even for a single instant when we directly perceive the emptiness of time.

The wrong views about time is completly dissolved, completely cease without any trace. The seed is completely burnt out.

This is the importance of understanding the emptiness of time.

If we cannot understand it, we will just think this is just a scholar debate, no value. We miss the link between what we are studying with what we are doing in life.

But if we can understand it, we will strive to fully realize and appreciate it.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
squarepeg
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by squarepeg »

Greetings,
This kind of thinking will never ever appear even for a single instant when we directly perceive the emptiness of time.

Your expirence is all inclusive.

To percieve (with the constituent parts that perception requires to take place) is to experience time. There is no entity "emptyness" not even in a figuritive way. Because language (being a conditioned thing) is not able to discribe that witch would, other wise, be un-conditioned. In the same way "no-time" can not be related towards with language, but again this does not mean that "emptyness" and "no-time" are ineffable entitys. As saying something is ineffable implys that it still exists. And as we know no-thing exists that is not conditioned by other things.

Too say that there is not time in an objective sense is too relate to the qualitys of existance in witch expirence is non sequential. Like a deep meditative state (I imagine). You can't say that you heard a sound with your eyes, or that you tasted a smell with your skin can you? In the same way you cant relate to a non-sequential entity by means of expirence that requires sequentialization, or has sequential expirence built in.

In the same way, if you were to be in some mode of experience that time was not a part of, that sort of experience would not be effable in the realms of experience where time is a constant. ex. Why Make Sentence Does This Not Sense.

My problem with this is I think your statements imply that there is something behind what we experience. Like, dare i say, a soul.

with metta,

SP
"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"
Y1010
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by Y1010 »

When all the concepts were gone, there was only darkness for me.
I needed to find new values in life. It is a personal matter.
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by DarwidHalim »

Y1010 wrote:When all the concepts were gone, there was only darkness for me.
I needed to find new values in life. It is a personal matter.
If we think about the state without concept, we will think there is only darkness for us.

But, if we ever experience the state without concept, we will experience perfect clearance.

The sky will never dark when the clouds have disappeared. Even in the clear darkness, the brightness of stars cannot hide.

In realizing the perfect clearance, the concepts cannot touch "you", even you play with concepts again and again.

However, without realizing this perfect clearance, the "mind" will confuse "itself", and the concepts will simply burn you.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
Y1010
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Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:34 pm

Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by Y1010 »

[quote="DarwidHalim"]
If we think about the state without concept, we will think there is only darkness for us.
quote]

This is an affront to me. I'm sorry.
daverupa
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by daverupa »

Y1010 wrote:This is an affront to me.
:shrug:

:?:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Buckwheat
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by Buckwheat »

santa100 wrote:All streams flow into one sea.
To be overly literal here, the Lake Tahoe basin flows out the Truckee River into the middle of Nevada to Lake Pyramid and dries up in the desert. This is true for a good chunk of the western United States, such as the Great Salt Lake. Now, I suppose those evaporated water vapors eventually find their way to other streams which do lead to the great oceans, but I really can't say that the Truckee River flows to the great sea.

Now, I bring this up because how do we really know all traditions really lead to the same salvation? It sounds wonderful and reassuring, but dhamma is not about wonderfully reassurance. It is about the naked, ugly truth.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Buckwheat
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by Buckwheat »

Concepts are not right or wrong. They are tools used by humans for convenience and survival, no more / no less. What is wrong is to substitute a deep understanding of reality with cheap and easy concepts. Oh, and I guess concepts can be wrong if they are lies or false hypotheses.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
santa100
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by santa100 »

Buckwheat wrote:
"Now, I bring this up because how do we really know all traditions really lead to the same salvation? It sounds wonderful and reassuring, but dhamma is not about wonderfully reassurance. It is about the naked, ugly truth."

Don't forget the context of my message, which meant that all major Buddhist traditions do lead to the same salvation. How do we really know? Well, although each might has its own methods and techniques for training, they all share the same core concepts: 4 NT, 8 NP, 12 DO, 3 characteristics, etc.. whether one trains in Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, Zen, PureLand,..these teachings always remain the same..So, the naked ugly truth and the wonderful reassurance don't have to be mutually exclusive. They might work together pretty well..
Buckwheat
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Re: Emptiness of time and others

Post by Buckwheat »

santa100,

Sorry, I thought that was the global "all traditions". I agree that all Buddhist traditions lead to the same goal.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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