Understanding the fourth precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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alan
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by alan »

Kill him.
santa100
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by santa100 »

Whynotme wrote:
A mass murderer is going to kill hundreds of victims by press a button of a bomb, there is a gun and you are the only one could stop him by killing him instantly by a shot, there is no other way to stop him, if he is wounded, he still could trigger the bomb. What is your choice? Remember that you could save hundreds lives, do you kill him? Or do you let hundreds people die?
Need more info. for appropriate action: type of rifle (automatic, semi-automatic, with or without sniper optic scope?), number of rounds available, distance from the mass murderer (point blank, 100-200m, beyond 300m?). If your weapon is automatic, there're plenty of rounds, and distance within 200m, you can aim at the arm and spray it; if it's a sniper rifle, aim at the arm with the optic scope; no automatic weapon, only a few rounds, and within 100m? go for the lower belly, being hit in this area won't kill but cause enough pain to immobilize; beyond 300m? good luck, it's a hit or miss, aim for the trunk since it's a bigger target than the head. Bottom line, try your best to save as many lives as you can (including the mass murderer too, if possible)...
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Jason
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Jason »

I have to agree with Richard Gombrich's opinion, who writes in What the Buddha Thought, "The Buddha does not often propound absolute moral values without reference to context — though Chapter 6 above deals with a major exception. Truth, for example, is a very important value; but in the standard dilemma whether a mother should tell the truth when her son is hiding from murderous enemy soldiers and they come and ask her where he is hiding, one cannot imagine the Buddha saying that she must tell the truth: he would say he is a vibhajja-vado [i.e., one who 'distinguishes the different implications of a question']" (pp. 170-71).
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Mama
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Mama »

So do I tell my young children the truth about Father Christmas?
Lhamo
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Lhamo »

Whynotme, why do I get the feeling this topic upsets you? No one is throwing caution (or precepts) to the wind, and saying we don't need to take the precepts seriously, or we can lie whenever we feel it convenient. The discussion is about the rare and extraordinary situations that may arise in life (or may not, for the fortunate) in which one may be faced with the difficult decision of either hewing to the precepts, or helping others. This is a worthwhile topic to discuss on a Buddhist forum, this is what forums like these are for. "What would we do IF..." some unthinkable predicament arose? And over the course of a lifetime, one or two may. If we discuss such difficult questions in advance among like-minded people, our "virtuous friends" of the sangha, we will be better prepared to face the unexpected and to take the right course.
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Jason
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Jason »

Mama wrote:So do I tell my young children the truth about Father Christmas?
I don't know why people pretend he's real in the first place. I'd much rather receive gifts from my friends and family than some imaginary man who forces an entire race of imaginary beings in some frozen tundra sweatshop to make the gifts he then gives and gets all the credit/cookies and milk for. Maybe some class-conscious kid should slip a copy of the Communist Manifesto in with their letter, because I bet Santa doesn't read them all himself. Elves of the world, unite!
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Lhamo
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Lhamo »

haha! That's a good laugh, Jason! How do we know Santa & helpers aren't Enlightened Beings working devotedly for others' happiness? Besides, Marx was all for working hard for a higher good. After visiting the utopian experiments in the US, he took the Shaker maxim, "Hands to work, hearts to God" and tweaked it to come out "Hands to work, hearts to the good of the working class" or "Hands to work, hearts to Lenin", was a later permutation. :lol: You're killing me! :rofl:
(Thanks, we needed some comic relief on this thread. )
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Jason
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Jason »

Glad someone got a laugh out of it. :D
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by DarwidHalim »

PeDr0 wrote:I understand the Buddha said that under no circumstances was it ever skillful to tell a lie.
I think it is not a buddhist way. In buddhism, any actions, even killing, is free from good or bad.

The one that make it good or bad, is the motivation behind it. Not the action itself.

Suppose, you are a weak person. You meet 1 person running to you and hide in your bedroom. Suddenly 1 terrorist full of weapon who want to kill him came and ask you about this person. What do you want to do?

Tell him yes he is here and please don't kill that guy? This is an action without wisdom.

By telling lie with the motivation to save both of them, your action is wholesome.
By telling lie, you save the killer from his bad karma, as you know killing a person will give that person a very bad karma.
By telling lie, you also save that guy who hide in your bedroom.

Buddhism is not a teaching A is A, B is B. Nothing is absolute in buddhism. Every vows in buddhism has a reason behind. When we don't do like the vows, from outside it looks like we are breaking the action. But breaking the action doesn't mean you break the reason behind that vows.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
Nori
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Nori »

There is a very specific teaching by the Buddha (cannot recall the sutta), which is that you shouldn't be attached too strong to rules and precepts. On many occasions, the Buddha suggested things for the order, only to change it later due to some specific reason. Not that not lying is a 'rule', or that there exist any - 'rules'. I think what is important is to understand the intention behind the recommendations he made (i.e. what is the reason for his recommendation, and how is it conducive to well being?).
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Ben
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Ben »

I think this one might be of relevance:

"For the person who transgresses in one thing, I tell you, there is no evil deed that is not to be done. Which one thing? This: telling a deliberate lie."


The person who lies,
who transgress in this one thing,
transcending concern for the world beyond:
there's no evil
he might not do.
— Iti 25
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Ben
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Ben »

And another...
"And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech as right speech. And what is wrong speech? Lying, divisive tale-bearing, abusive speech, & idle chatter. This is wrong speech...

"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech."

— MN 117
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Lazy_eye »

Ben wrote:I think this one might be of relevance:

"For the person who transgresses in one thing, I tell you, there is no evil deed that is not to be done. Which one thing? This: telling a deliberate lie."


The person who lies,
who transgress in this one thing,
transcending concern for the world beyond:
there's no evil
he might not do.
— Iti 25
Thing is, though, while this passage warns of a hypothetical evil ("there is no evil he might not do"), in the Gestapo scenario one is committing, or at least abetting, a real and immanent evil by not concealing the family's presence. Since harm is being done in either case, it seems to me one must choose the option that does less harm -- in this case, hiding the family.

We do not know for sure what sort of unwholesomeness might arise from deceiving the Nazis, nor what vipaka would result, but we can be fairly certain about what will happen if the Gestapo find who they're looking for.

It is also questionable whether the lie in this case can be termed "deliberate", since it is occurring under duress. Volition is compromised when someone is pointing a gun to your head.
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BuddhaKurt
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by BuddhaKurt »

Some lies are for the benefit and welfare of others, which would make it okay. sometimes lies are told by accident. If your intentions are pure, and you are an honest person, your mind will not be tied down to remembering lies. Liars, cheaters, gossipers and secret keepers are tied to a world of suffering. When a person has nothing to hide, is open and honest, the mind is free and a free mind will open (enlightenment.)
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Ben wrote:
bodom wrote: Unfortunately one cannot hide from kamma in a basement.
Indeed!
Sometimes you have to hide under the bed.

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