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Is it ever O.K. to lie? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:34 pm

There is no need to lie, but sometimes one must be economical with the truth. Focus on the positive, and overlook the negative to show people the way to heaven.

At once time, Venerable Sāriputta was walking for alms when saw him. He had faith on seeing the elder and wished to offer alms. He gave the elder his own breakfast that he was about to start eating.

While the elder was teaching the Dhamma to him, Tambadāthika's mind was troubled by all of the evil deeds he had done as a robber and then public executioner. Seeing that he was unable to concentrate on his discourse, the elder asked him, "Did you want to kill all of those victims?" Tambadāthika replied that he felt he had no choice. By this skilful means, the elder eased Tambadāthika's conscience and made him think that he was not to blame for those actions. (Of course, he was still guilty of intentionally killing others, but the kamma is less if one does it under duress, fearing for the loss of one's own life).

Thereafter, Tambadāthika was able to concentrate, gained Anuloma ñāna, and dying shortly afterwards was reborn in the Tusita heaven.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

whynotme
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby whynotme » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:12 am

Dear bhikkhu Pesala,

Are you a monk? Greetings, sadhu, well said

@ everyone think lying could be acceptable:

I don't judge people by their actions, because that is not my job. But lying is not good, you should not imagine at situations that could lead to bad actions.

If you think you save others' lives by lying, and accept the bad kamma of that actions, well, I think the kamma of lying is not very bad, as in the patimokka the lying actions is not a big deal, except lying about noble things. But the thoughts that one accepts lying is clinging, that's all I want to say. Why do you need to cling to that thoughts?

If you think you could save others' lives in a hypothetical situation, then I have a situation for you:
A mass murderer is going to kill hundreds of victims by press a button of a bomb, there is a gun and you are the only one could stop him by killing him instantly by a shot, there is no other way to stop him, if he is wounded, he still could trigger the bomb. What is your choice? Remember that you could save hundreds lives, do you kill him? Or do you let hundreds people die?

Here is my choice: I don't kill him, but is there any hero here?

Welcome to life, here are politics, warfare, military actions, economical management, many situations that it would be very hard to not lying for the sake of some people, maybe including yourself. I think, for the sake of the others, are big and impressed words, but luckily the Buddha didn't do anything like that, for the sake of the others.

Regards.
Please stop following me

alan
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby alan » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:10 am

Kill him.

santa100
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby santa100 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:57 am


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Jason
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby Jason » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:26 pm

I have to agree with Richard Gombrich's opinion, who writes in What the Buddha Thought, "The Buddha does not often propound absolute moral values without reference to context — though Chapter 6 above deals with a major exception. Truth, for example, is a very important value; but in the standard dilemma whether a mother should tell the truth when her son is hiding from murderous enemy soldiers and they come and ask her where he is hiding, one cannot imagine the Buddha saying that she must tell the truth: he would say he is a vibhajja-vado [i.e., one who 'distinguishes the different implications of a question']" (pp. 170-71).
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" ().

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Mama
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby Mama » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:26 pm

So do I tell my young children the truth about Father Christmas?

Lhamo
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby Lhamo » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:03 pm

Whynotme, why do I get the feeling this topic upsets you? No one is throwing caution (or precepts) to the wind, and saying we don't need to take the precepts seriously, or we can lie whenever we feel it convenient. The discussion is about the rare and extraordinary situations that may arise in life (or may not, for the fortunate) in which one may be faced with the difficult decision of either hewing to the precepts, or helping others. This is a worthwhile topic to discuss on a Buddhist forum, this is what forums like these are for. "What would we do IF..." some unthinkable predicament arose? And over the course of a lifetime, one or two may. If we discuss such difficult questions in advance among like-minded people, our "virtuous friends" of the sangha, we will be better prepared to face the unexpected and to take the right course.

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Jason
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby Jason » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:07 pm

"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" ().

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Lhamo
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby Lhamo » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:18 am

haha! That's a good laugh, Jason! How do we know Santa & helpers aren't Enlightened Beings working devotedly for others' happiness? Besides, Marx was all for working hard for a higher good. After visiting the utopian experiments in the US, he took the Shaker maxim, "Hands to work, hearts to God" and tweaked it to come out "Hands to work, hearts to the good of the working class" or "Hands to work, hearts to Lenin", was a later permutation. :lol: You're killing me! :rofl:
(Thanks, we needed some comic relief on this thread. )

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Jason
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby Jason » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:59 am

Glad someone got a laugh out of it. :D
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby DarwidHalim » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:59 am

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

Nori
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby Nori » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:21 am

There is a very specific teaching by the Buddha (cannot recall the sutta), which is that you shouldn't be attached too strong to rules and precepts. On many occasions, the Buddha suggested things for the order, only to change it later due to some specific reason. Not that not lying is a 'rule', or that there exist any - 'rules'. I think what is important is to understand the intention behind the recommendations he made (i.e. what is the reason for his recommendation, and how is it conducive to well being?).

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Ben
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby Ben » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:34 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Ben
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby Ben » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:40 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Lazy_eye
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:43 pm


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BuddhaKurt
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby BuddhaKurt » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:57 pm

Some lies are for the benefit and welfare of others, which would make it okay. sometimes lies are told by accident. If your intentions are pure, and you are an honest person, your mind will not be tied down to remembering lies. Liars, cheaters, gossipers and secret keepers are tied to a world of suffering. When a person has nothing to hide, is open and honest, the mind is free and a free mind will open (enlightenment.)

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:16 am

Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

whynotme
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby whynotme » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:49 pm

Please stop following me

whynotme
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby whynotme » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:03 pm

Please stop following me

santa100
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Postby santa100 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:10 pm



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