Understanding the fourth precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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whynotme
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by whynotme »

santa100 wrote:
Whynotme wrote:
A mass murderer is going to kill hundreds of victims by press a button of a bomb, there is a gun and you are the only one could stop him by killing him instantly by a shot, there is no other way to stop him, if he is wounded, he still could trigger the bomb. What is your choice? Remember that you could save hundreds lives, do you kill him? Or do you let hundreds people die?
Need more info. for appropriate action: type of rifle (automatic, semi-automatic, with or without sniper optic scope?), number of rounds available, distance from the mass murderer (point blank, 100-200m, beyond 300m?). If your weapon is automatic, there're plenty of rounds, and distance within 200m, you can aim at the arm and spray it; if it's a sniper rifle, aim at the arm with the optic scope; no automatic weapon, only a few rounds, and within 100m? go for the lower belly, being hit in this area won't kill but cause enough pain to immobilize; beyond 300m? good luck, it's a hit or miss, aim for the trunk since it's a bigger target than the head. Bottom line, try your best to save as many lives as you can (including the mass murderer too, if possible)...
Here is the info:
The murderer has very thick body armor covering all of his body, or he is standing after a wall, the only possible target is the head. Hey, assume you have a sniper rifle and the ability to use it, and the only way is aiming for the head and killing him instantly. Time is counting in seconds, you don't have time to change position to choose other part of body of him because he is going to press the button of the bomb. What will you do, kill him or not?
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whynotme
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by whynotme »

Lazy_eye wrote:
Ben wrote:I think this one might be of relevance:

"For the person who transgresses in one thing, I tell you, there is no evil deed that is not to be done. Which one thing? This: telling a deliberate lie."


The person who lies,
who transgress in this one thing,
transcending concern for the world beyond:
there's no evil
he might not do.
— Iti 25
Thing is, though, while this passage warns of a hypothetical evil ("there is no evil he might not do"), in the Gestapo scenario one is committing, or at least abetting, a real and immanent evil by not concealing the family's presence. Since harm is being done in either case, it seems to me one must choose the option that does less harm -- in this case, hiding the family.

We do not know for sure what sort of unwholesomeness might arise from deceiving the Nazis, nor what vipaka would result, but we can be fairly certain about what will happen if the Gestapo find who they're looking for.

It is also questionable whether the lie in this case can be termed "deliberate", since it is occurring under duress. Volition is compromised when someone is pointing a gun to your head.
You forgot one thing, Buddhism is about free from relation, you want to save other lives, it is a good intention but be careful of its relation.

It seems people don't believe in the Teacher, they only believe in their own eyes.

In the suttas, a king said the most loved thing to one is oneself, so your life or other lives, which one do you choose? And in another sutta, Sukkha the king of Devas thought that, even costing his life, he won't lie. Hope that helps.
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santa100
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by santa100 »

Whynotme wrote:
Here is the info:
The murderer has very thick body armor covering all of his body, or he is standing after a wall, the only possible target is the head. Hey, assume you have a sniper rifle and the ability to use it, and the only way is aiming for the head and killing him instantly. Time is counting in seconds, you don't have time to change position to choose other part of body of him because he is going to press the button of the bomb. What will you do, kill him or not?
Well, the key stragetic goal would still be the same: to save many lives including the mass murderer "If Possible". Depends on the situation, we can come up with creative and flexible ways to achieve this goal. Obviously, there'll be a situation where one's really left with no other choice but to squeeze the trigger. By the way, just to spice things up a little bit, given all the premises that you already given, adding that many of your relatives and loved ones (grandparents, siblings, aunts, uncles, spouse, kids, etc...) are among the hostages. What will YOU do?
whynotme
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by whynotme »

santa100 wrote:
Whynotme wrote:
Here is the info:
The murderer has very thick body armor covering all of his body, or he is standing after a wall, the only possible target is the head. Hey, assume you have a sniper rifle and the ability to use it, and the only way is aiming for the head and killing him instantly. Time is counting in seconds, you don't have time to change position to choose other part of body of him because he is going to press the button of the bomb. What will you do, kill him or not?
Well, the key stragetic goal would still be the same: to save many lives including the mass murderer "If Possible". Depends on the situation, we can come up with creative and flexible ways to achieve this goal. Obviously, there'll be a situation where one's really left with no other choice but to squeeze the trigger. By the way, just to spice things up a little bit, given all the premises that you already given, adding that many of your relatives and loved ones (grandparents, siblings, aunts, uncles, spouse, kids, etc...) are among the hostages. What will YOU do?
As I already said, I will not pull the trigger, I will not kill him.

Thing is, the stop of the life is not the stop of all things. There is still next life, if they, my loved ones have done good things, I am not worried about them, their next life may be better than this life, I always try to convince them to do good things.

In my view, the stopping of their life isn't different from they taking a hit from a punch, should I tell them to punch back? Should I revenge?

This life is just a flash in the infinity time. Don't worry about the death, let worry if you or other ones you love didn't do good karma to prepare for it (the death).

That is my thought, and what about you, what is your choice?

Regards.
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santa100
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by santa100 »

Whynotme wrote:
santa100 wrote:
Well, the key stragetic goal would still be the same: to save many lives including the mass murderer "If Possible". Depends on the situation, we can come up with creative and flexible ways to achieve this goal. Obviously, there'll be a situation where one's really left with no other choice but to squeeze the trigger. By the way, just to spice things up a little bit, given all the premises that you already given, adding that many of your relatives and loved ones (grandparents, siblings, aunts, uncles, spouse, kids, etc...) are among the hostages. What will YOU do?
As I already said, I will not pull the trigger, I will not kill him
What????????????????????????????????????? I don't know what else to say..
whynotme
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by whynotme »

santa100 wrote:
Whynotme wrote:
santa100 wrote:
Well, the key stragetic goal would still be the same: to save many lives including the mass murderer "If Possible". Depends on the situation, we can come up with creative and flexible ways to achieve this goal. Obviously, there'll be a situation where one's really left with no other choice but to squeeze the trigger. By the way, just to spice things up a little bit, given all the premises that you already given, adding that many of your relatives and loved ones (grandparents, siblings, aunts, uncles, spouse, kids, etc...) are among the hostages. What will YOU do?
As I already said, I will not pull the trigger, I will not kill him
What????????????????????????????????????? I don't know what else to say..
Well, it is easier said than done,

But why are you so surprised, this is a Buddhism forum.
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santa100
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by santa100 »

I don't know Whynotme, even in this Buddhist forum, your view is very, what can I say, "unique"...
whynotme
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by whynotme »

santa100 wrote:I don't know Whynotme, even in this Buddhist forum, your view is very, what can I say, "unique"...
So by unique you mean you will kill him?

And I am pretty sure there are people in this forum will not kill in that situation

Regards.
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santa100
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by santa100 »

Then the only way to find out is to make a poll. Again, I'd ask folks to carefully re-read all the premises made by you and the extra premises made by me for the scenario..
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by DNS »

This thread is about "Is it ever O.K. to lie?" not about hypothetical situations about killing. Better to take those issues to the following thread or make another one:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 28&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
whynotme
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by whynotme »

Dear David,

Thanks for your suggestion.

OK, a bit off topic but I think we're here almost all Buddhists and talk in peace, so no need to rule strictly. And in my opinion, the thing discussed may related to other things, if move it to another threads or start new one it somehow will be nonsense.

Do you expect this topic only talk about is it OK to lie, but don't talk about Buddha, suttas,.. because one could start new threads to talk about those things or easily found similar topics already here?

It is just my opinion,
Regards.
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by DarwidHalim »

whynotme wrote: The Buddha said what leads to bad actions should be considered bad.
I am not agree with this.

To me, what leads to bad intention should be considered bad.

Action is free and neutral. Lying, killing, and donation are free.

Look at donation. If we think donation is a good action, then donation with the intention to get fame is a good action.
Look at praying. If we think praying is a good action, the praying with the motivation to be looked holy is a good action.

I am not on that kind of understanding.

Let's look at lying. If I see only from the action point of view, lying is bad. But if I see lying with the intention to help others, to me it is a good action.
Same with killing. If I have NO OTHER CHOECES and kill him with the intention to prevent him from making very heavy bad karma, to me it is a good action.

Of course, if I have magic power that can make him doesn't make, I will not kill him. But in the situation, there is no other choices, killing with the good intention, to me is considered good.

We need to be careful here. We cannot lie to karmic law.

We cannot pretend, oh I kill him because I want to help him, but in fact I hate it. This one definitely doesn't work.

I can lie to you, but I cannot lie to myself and nature knows it.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
whynotme
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by whynotme »

DarwidHalim wrote:
whynotme wrote: The Buddha said what leads to bad actions should be considered bad.
I am not agree with this.

To me, what leads to bad intention should be considered bad.

Action is free and neutral. Lying, killing, and donation are free.

Look at donation. If we think donation is a good action, then donation with the intention to get fame is a good action.
Look at praying. If we think praying is a good action, the praying with the motivation to be looked holy is a good action.

I am not on that kind of understanding.

Let's look at lying. If I see only from the action point of view, lying is bad. But if I see lying with the intention to help others, to me it is a good action.
Same with killing. If I have NO OTHER CHOECES and kill him with the intention to prevent him from making very heavy bad karma, to me it is a good action.

Of course, if I have magic power that can make him doesn't make, I will not kill him. But in the situation, there is no other choices, killing with the good intention, to me is considered good.

We need to be careful here. We cannot lie to karmic law.

We cannot pretend, oh I kill him because I want to help him, but in fact I hate it. This one definitely doesn't work.

I can lie to you, but I cannot lie to myself and nature knows it.
I don't care you agree with or not, I just sayin

Have you read the sutta the Buddha did a description how bad action exist in this world? Yes, lying a little thing is sometimes nonsense, but at the social level, it is totally different. Remember that the Buddha has the full view, he knew what is right what is wrong, don't apply your view on his teaching. If he said don't lie, then don't lie, if he said don't kill, then don't kill. If you think you are smarter than him, you know more about this world than him, you better than him, care more about the other than him, then please feel free to do whatever you want

Regards.
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by DarwidHalim »

whynotme wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:
whynotme wrote: The Buddha said what leads to bad actions should be considered bad.
I am not agree with this.

To me, what leads to bad intention should be considered bad.

Action is free and neutral. Lying, killing, and donation are free.

Look at donation. If we think donation is a good action, then donation with the intention to get fame is a good action.
Look at praying. If we think praying is a good action, the praying with the motivation to be looked holy is a good action.

I am not on that kind of understanding.

Let's look at lying. If I see only from the action point of view, lying is bad. But if I see lying with the intention to help others, to me it is a good action.
Same with killing. If I have NO OTHER CHOECES and kill him with the intention to prevent him from making very heavy bad karma, to me it is a good action.

Of course, if I have magic power that can make him doesn't make, I will not kill him. But in the situation, there is no other choices, killing with the good intention, to me is considered good.

We need to be careful here. We cannot lie to karmic law.

We cannot pretend, oh I kill him because I want to help him, but in fact I hate it. This one definitely doesn't work.

I can lie to you, but I cannot lie to myself and nature knows it.
I don't care you agree with or not, I just sayin

Have you read the sutta the Buddha did a description how bad action exist in this world? Yes, lying a little thing is sometimes nonsense, but at the social level, it is totally different. Remember that the Buddha has the full view, he knew what is right what is wrong, don't apply your view on his teaching. If he said don't lie, then don't lie, if he said don't kill, then don't kill. If you think you are smarter than him, you know more about this world than him, you better than him, care more about the other than him, then please feel free to do whatever you want

Regards.
OK, then if you have reached arahant state or buddha state, what will you do? Lie or not? :jumping: :jumping: :jumping:
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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acinteyyo
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by acinteyyo »

DarwidHalim wrote:To me, what leads to bad intention should be considered bad. Action is free and neutral. Lying, killing, and donation are free.
Nibbedhika Sutta
ANVI.63 wrote:"Intention, I tell you, is action (kamma). Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."
"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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