Unorthodox Vipassana

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Sylvester
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by Sylvester »

mikenz66 wrote:That's OK Sylvester, we can wait for you to recover... :console:

But am I understanding that you are saying that the passage:
There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.'
Is being or is, or both, the translation of atthi?

So Ajahn Amaro's:
The second verb, “atthi,” refers to the transcendental qualities
of being-ness. Being-ness, in this case, does not imply a
becoming, the world of time or identity. It reflects the unconditioned,
the unmanifest nature of mind...
is problematical because the use of "to be" in the Satipathhana Sutta isn't unconditioned?

:anjali:
Mike
Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! You hit the nail on the head.

Ajahn Amaro's takes Nibanna Sutta in Ud 8.1 as follows -
‘‘Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ, na viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ, na ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ, na nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ, nāyaṃ loko, na paraloko, na ubho candimasūriyā. Tatrāpāhaṃ, bhikkhave, neva āgatiṃ vadāmi , na gatiṃ, na ṭhitiṃ, na cutiṃ, na upapattiṃ; appatiṭṭhaṃ, appavattaṃ, anārammaṇamevetaṃ. Esevanto dukkhassā’’ti.

There is that sphere of being where there is no earth,
no water, no fire, nor wind; no experience of infinity
of space, of infinity of consciousness, of no-thingness,
or even of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; here
there is neither this world nor another world, neither
moon nor sun; this sphere of being I call neither a coming
nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor
a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution, and no
support: it is the end of dukkha
It is clear that this udana declares "there is" Nibbana, the "unconditioned".

But Ajahn Amaro is absolutely wrong to equate the use of "atthi" to only the Unconditioned. In fact, the most famous use of "atthi" in respect of the conditioned is to be found in that principle dealing with "conditioned-ness", ie iddapaccayata.
Imasmim sati, idam hoti ...

This being, that is ...
In this formula, "sati" is the locative case for "santo". "Santo" is the present participle for "atthi". You can also see this "santo" inflected as "santam" in the Satipatthana Sutta posted above (santam = there being).

By his interpretation, every nidana and every factor of DO would have to concern itself with asankhata dhammas... :tantrum:

Pls don't get me started on Ven Thanissaro's translation and note to this Udana. :tongue:
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piotr
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by piotr »

Hi,
mikenz66 wrote:Would it be possible for you to explain this in simpler terms so I could understand where the problem lies?
As Sylvester pointed out, in Pāli Canon “atthi” refers also to conditioned things, like, for example, five khandhas:
  • “And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon existing (atthi), of which I to say that it exists (atthi)? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. Feeling... Perception... Volitional formations... Consciousness that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists.
    “That, bhikkhus, is what the wise in the world agree upon existing, of which I to say that it exists.”

    Puppha-sutta, (SN 22.94) trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi
But I think, that there is slight difference in the meaning of this two verbs. “Bhavati (hoti)” is more like “to become”, “atthi” is just general “to be”.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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mikenz66
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks!

:heart:
Mike
PeterB
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by PeterB »

The natural ability to separate mind (or mind-essence, to
use Dzogchen terminology) and mind objects is clearly reflected
in the Pali language. There are actually two different verbs
meaning “to be,” and they correspond to the conventional or
conditioned, and to the unconditioned. The verb “hoti” refers
to that which is conditioned and passes through time. These
are the common activities and the labels of various sense
impressions that we use regularly, and, for the most part,
unconsciously. Everyone agrees, for example, that water is
wet, the body is heavy, there are seven days in the week, and
I am a man.
The second verb, “atthi,” refers to the transcendental qualities
of being-ness.
Being-ness, in this case, does not imply a
becoming, the world of time or identity. It reflects the unconditioned,
the unmanifest nature of mind
I suppose the meditator cultivating the satipatthanas would now have to confront the transcendental and unconditioned Hindrances when this occurs to him/her -
And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves?

There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances?

There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)

Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati?

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu nīvaraṇesu. Kathañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu nīvaraṇesu?

Idha , bhikkhave, bhikkhu santaṃ vā ajjhattaṃ kāmacchandaṃ ‘atthi me ajjhattaṃ kāmacchando’ti pajānāti, asantaṃ vā ajjhattaṃ kāmacchandaṃ ‘natthi me ajjhattaṃ kāmacchando’ti pajānāti; yathā ca anuppannassa kāmacchandassa uppādo hoti tañca pajānāti, yathā ca uppannassa kāmacchandassa pahānaṃ hoti tañca pajānāti, yathā ca pahīnassa kāmacchandassa āyatiṃ anuppādo hoti tañca pajānāti.
Why, o why, do otherwise good monks make gaffes like this?[/quote]





Because it is not a gaffe. Ajahn Amaro was appointed at a young age as abbott of one of the Forest Traditions leading western monasteries because of his palpable attainment.
You will find him and a number of other spiritual descendents of Luang Por Chah using Pali in a creative and living way.
This is of course is upsetting to some...and the Forest Tradition we may conclude, is not their way.
But it is not bad scholarship....it is a conscious eschewel of scholarship.
What this illustrates vividly is the fact that the Forest Tradition is rooted in the experiential...not in the Sutta tradition.
As such they feel able to tale liberties with the Pali. They bend it to reflect experience rather than use language to create a model of anticipated experience.
Luang Por Chah said repeatedly " The only book worth reading is the book of the heart ".
This was not a flippant throw away remark, he meant it.
The Forest Tradition have a working knowledge of Pali, as much as it tales to encourage the real work on the cushion.
The results of this non scholastic approach can be see anytime one has contact with the Forest Sangha...
Their wisdom , humour and vitality are inspiring.
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piotr
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by piotr »

Hi,

bhante Amaro made unsupported remark about usage and meaning of two words in Pali. That's not being creative, but wrong. I don't think that we question everything what he said or did in his life, but rather, we point out this one mistake. People do make mistakes, whoever they might be.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
PeterB
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by PeterB »

Do you know Ajahn Amaro ? Or any of the sucessors to Luang Por Chah ?
If you do you will know that they wouldnt give a damn about being mistaken about the Pali... :smile:


He was borrowing a term to give words to the unsayable.

" The only book worth reading is the book of the heart "
Ajahn Chah.

That kind of approach will be anathema to some.
Probably best if that is the case to leave the Forest Sangha alone and concentrate on those teachers who are Pali scholars


:anjali:
Last edited by PeterB on Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by PeterB »

Sacha G wrote:Hi
I just wanted to expose the unorthodox way I practice vipassana (not always but for a good part of my practice).
When I'm concentrated enough, I focus my awareness on the pure consciousness which appears "around" and "between" the thoughts (I hope it's clear enough). I would call this, "recognizing" of the pure consciousness.
Then I try to stay on it as much as I can, without paying attention to the thoughts. Like somebody looking at a mirror, and wanting to see the mirror itself, not the reflections.
When I leave the cushion, I try to be aware of my environment as just "phenomena" appearing on the surface of this consciousness, and I try to keep this detached awareness.
What do you think? Can you call this vipassana? Or does it sound more like zen/dzogchen/advaita? :juggling:
Thanx
Sacha
This was the OP, and I replied in accord with what I have learned from Ajahn Amaro.
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piotr
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by piotr »

Hi PeterB,

Thanks for advice, I'll stay away from your sacred cow.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
PeterB
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by PeterB »

piotr wrote:Hi PeterB,

Thanks for advice, I'll stay away from your sacred cow.

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote: Because it is not a gaffe. Ajahn Amaro was appointed at a young age as abbott of one of the Forest Traditions leading western monasteries because of his palpable attainment.
You will find him and a number of other spiritual descendents of Luang Por Chah using Pali in a creative and living way.
This is of course is upsetting to some...and the Forest Tradition we may conclude, is not their way.
But it is not bad scholarship....it is a conscious eschewel of scholarship.
What this illustrates vividly is the fact that the Forest Tradition is rooted in the experiential...not in the Sutta tradition.
As such they feel able to tale liberties with the Pali. They bend it to reflect experience rather than use language to create a model of anticipated experience.
Luang Por Chah said repeatedly " The only book worth reading is the book of the heart ".
This was not a flippant throw away remark, he meant it.
The Forest Tradition have a working knowledge of Pali, as much as it tales to encourage the real work on the cushion.
The results of this non scholastic approach can be see anytime one has contact with the Forest Sangha...
Their wisdom , humour and vitality are inspiring.
Sounds like a rationale for the starting of the Mahayana.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by PeterB »

You wouldn't be the first to say so....in fact of course they distance themselves even more from the Mahayana written corpus. Their approach is like or not, radically experiential. As such they are true heirs to Ajahns Mun and Chah.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:You wouldn't be the first to say so....in fact of course they distance themselves even more from the Mahayana written corpus. Their approach is like or not, radically experiential. As such they are true heirs to Ajahns Mun and Chah.
That's fine, but the touch stone is the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by PeterB »

For whom Tilt ?
You had better tell THEM that. They would gently and politely beg to differ.
I must have attended several hundred hours of teachings by various Forest Ajahns including Ajahn Sumedho and I dont recall them referring to the Suttas at all.
Perhaps they are not Theravada . Seriously. And if they were not considered so I dont think they would lose sleep.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:For whom Tilt ?
You had better tell THEM that. They would gently and politely beg to differ.
I must have attended several hundred hours of teachings by various Forest Ajahns including Ajahn Sumedho and I dont recall them referring to the Suttas at all.
Perhaps they are not Theravada . Seriously. And if they were not considered so I dont think they would lose sleep.
And perhaps they are not even Buddhist.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by PeterB »

Thats certainly one interpretation of their teachings.
The fact that Ajahn Amaro followed by a number of other Bhikkhus became formal Dzogchen students came as no surprise.
And clearly had the approval of Ajahn Sumedho.
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