Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
dhamma follower
Posts: 354
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by dhamma follower »

TMingyur wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Of the awareness of the object choosen. It is not aware of the object since it monitors the being aware of the object.


Kind regards
Do you mean the knowing mind?
No I mean just sati. "Mindfulness of the object" which in practice is "monitoring the being aware of the object".

Kind regards
I'm not sure I follow you here :smile:

Actually, the point I wanted to discuss is whether there can be other objects of sati than satipatthana, as you have stated.

As far as I know, satipatthana cover nama-rupa

Unless you were talking of Nibbana...

Regards,
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by ground »

dhamma follower wrote: Actually, the point I wanted to discuss is whether there can be other objects of sati than satipatthana, as you have stated.
Of course can there be other objects because "sati" refers to a faculty only. Like e.g. "hearing" is a faculty but you may hear different sounds.
Furthermore "sati" in the context of satipatthana has different meaning aspects as is shown by B. Analayo in his book.

Kind regards
dhamma follower
Posts: 354
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by dhamma follower »

TMingyur wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: Actually, the point I wanted to discuss is whether there can be other objects of sati than satipatthana, as you have stated.
Of course can there be other objects because "sati" refers to a faculty only. Like e.g. "hearing" is a faculty but you may hear different sounds.
Furthermore "sati" in the context of satipatthana has different meaning aspects as is shown by B. Analayo in his book.

Kind regards
We are back again to my first question. what is sati aware of apart from satipatthana?

you mentioned awareness of the choosen object, and later defined it as sati.

sati is a cetasika, so it is part of satipatthana as well.

Regards,
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by ground »

dhamma follower wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: Actually, the point I wanted to discuss is whether there can be other objects of sati than satipatthana, as you have stated.
Of course can there be other objects because "sati" refers to a faculty only. Like e.g. "hearing" is a faculty but you may hear different sounds.
Furthermore "sati" in the context of satipatthana has different meaning aspects as is shown by B. Analayo in his book.

Kind regards
We are back again to my first question. what is sati aware of apart from satipatthana?

you mentioned awareness of the choosen object, and later defined it as sati.

sati is a cetasika, so it is part of satipatthana as well.

Regards,
I suggest you read B. Analayos book. He lists various meanings the term "sati" has in the suttas and comments on the relevance of these meanings in the context of satipatthana.

When we here are speaking about "sati" we may have very different meaning aspects in our minds and thus we may be talking at cross purposes.

I have been referring to "sati" as monitoring faculty in the context of concentration or attainment of samadhi.


Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by alan »

It is not the function of sati to be aware. It's the function of awareness to be aware.
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by alan »

I would not recommend Analyo's book to anyone who still has basic questions about the purpose of concentration and its relevance in any meditative practice.
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by ground »

dhamma follower wrote:
As far as I know, satipatthana cover nama-rupa

Unless you were talking of Nibbana...
That is true, the four foundations of satipatthana cover nama-rupa. But how is nama-rupa "covered"? By means of what is called "sati". And that term has different meaning aspects even in the context of satipatthana.
dhamma follower wrote:sati is a cetasika, so it is part of satipatthana as well.
right "a cetasika" but 1st "cetasika" is just another term and 2nd "a cetasika" may imply "one specific particular" which is not the case considering the different meanings the term "sati" may have and does have even in the context of satipatthana (as shown by B. Analayo).


Kind regards
dhamma follower
Posts: 354
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by dhamma follower »

TMingyur wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:
TMingyur wrote: We are back again to my first question. what is sati aware of apart from satipatthana?

you mentioned awareness of the choosen object, and later defined it as sati.

sati is a cetasika, so it is part of satipatthana as well.

Regards,
I suggest you read B. Analayos book. He lists various meanings the term "sati" has in the suttas and comments on the relevance of these meanings in the context of satipatthana.

When we here are speaking about "sati" we may have very different meaning aspects in our minds and thus we may be talking at cross purposes.

I have been referring to "sati" as monitoring faculty in the context of concentration or attainment of samadhi.


Kind regards
I have read the book some time ago, still I fail to see how it makes your point bellow:
I see. My thought was that sati that leads to sammasamadhi cannot be other than samma but is not necessarily satipatthana.
you seem to have stated here that there are other objects of sati than satipatthana or there exists another kind of sati altogether that can also be samma sati.

It is very strange.

regards,
-
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by chownah »

dhamma follower wrote:If sati is not aware of body, feelings, mind, and mind objects, what else it is aware of?
dhamma follower,
Seems like there might be a misunderstanding here about the meaning of this question. Are you meaning that whatever object is taken for sati that object must be from one of the four categories namely body, feelings, mind, or mind objects?.....or.....are you saying that sati can only contemplate body in and of itself, feelings in and of itself, mind in and of itself, or mind objects in and of itself?

Example: If you are meaning that all objects of sati come from one of the four categories then for instance I could take the thought of an apple as the object of sati and it would be represented as a mind object. If you are meaning that sati only contemplates body in and of itself, or feelings in and of itself, or mind in and of itself, or mind objects in and of itself then sati could not contemplate an apple because it is not any of these four in and of themselves.

Put another way....are you saying that sati can only take the concept of "mind object" as an object or are you saying that sati can take any particular instance of a mind object as its object?....similarly for "body", "feelings", and "mind".
chownah
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by ground »

dhamma follower wrote: I have read the book some time ago, still I fail to see how it makes your point bellow:
I see. My thought was that sati that leads to sammasamadhi cannot be other than samma but is not necessarily satipatthana.
you seem to have stated here that there are other objects of sati than satipatthana or there exists another kind of sati altogether that can also be samma sati.

It is very strange.

regards,
-
Don't get upset about a thought of mine. What I wanted to express is that sati (other than that in satipatthana) that entails sammasamadhi in the context of the path is "good" or "right". I did not want to negate the conventional definition of the "registered" term "samma sati" given in the suttas.
your "other objects of sati than satipatthana" does not appear to be precise since satipatthana not only refers to objects but also refers to a method of how to deal with these objects.


Kind regards
Jack
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:54 pm

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by Jack »

TMingyur wrote:
Sacha G wrote:Hi
sammasati (i.e the 4 satipatthana)
What's the use of just discovering the 1st truth other than to stir motivation to get out of there? The satipatthanas cover all 4 truth.
I think the 1st Noble Truth involves both noticing dukkha in one's life and learning to relate to this dukkha in a skillful way. That is, being with it without filters, not turning away and not defining one's "self" by it. Just in itself I think the 1st NT is a valuable teaching.

jack
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by manas »

I will invite the pundits to explain this further, as I'm not very scholarly and am still a beginner in the Buddha's teaching, but I think we really need to stop translating sati as 'mindfulness' altogether, and just refer to it as 'recollection' or 'remembrance' which I've read is a more accurate description. I'm sorry I don't have the energy to hunt down where I read it.

As far as 'knowing' or 'perceiving' the breath goes, 'pajanati' which would appear to derive from 'sampajanna' seems to refer to this...maybe the 'knowing' or awareness itself is sampajanna ('clear comprehension?), and the quality of recollection, of remembering where you are and what you are doing, is sati...? sati and sampajanna work together, but they have distinct funtions, yes?

I invite some clarification here...but I think that the way we translate these terms, as Enlish speakers, influences how we understand them, and our practice, for better or for worse.

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by ancientbuddhism »

manasikara wrote:I will invite the pundits to explain this further, as I'm not very scholarly and am still a beginner in the Buddha's teaching, but I think we really need to stop translating sati as 'mindfulness' altogether, and just refer to it as 'recollection' or 'remembrance' which I've read is a more accurate description. I'm sorry I don't have the energy to hunt down where I read it.

As far as 'knowing' or 'perceiving' the breath goes, 'pajanati' which would appear to derive from 'sampajanna' seems to refer to this...maybe the 'knowing' or awareness itself is sampajanna ('clear comprehension?), and the quality of recollection, of remembering where you are and what you are doing, is sati...? sati and sampajanna work together, but they have distinct funtions, yes?

I invite some clarification here...but I think that the way we translate these terms, as Enlish speakers, influences how we understand them, and our practice, for better or for worse.

:anjali:
In Ānāpānasati/Satipaṭṭhāna work, sati is part of the reflexive determination to stay on-task with the object of contemplation. We find this in the Ānāpānasati Sutta where in the setting up of practice the practitioner is advised to keep mindfulness set forward while mindfully breathing in and out (parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā so satova assasati, sato passasati). We find a strengthening of this definition of sati in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta where the task of sati is connected with ātāpa (ardour or intense endeavor) and sampajāna (clear-knowing). Here sati and ātāpa keeps one on-task with the object of contemplation, and sampajāna (clear-knowing, which is a further refinement of direct-knowing in pajānāti) examines everything rising and falling with that object with passive examination as we read in the refrain of insight of this sutta:

"Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-things in the body, or he lives contemplating dissolution-things in the body, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things in the body. Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world."

...as examination of the satipaṭṭhānas' progress.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

manasikara wrote:I will invite the pundits to explain this further, as I'm not very scholarly and am still a beginner in the Buddha's teaching, but I think we really need to stop translating sati as 'mindfulness' altogether, and just refer to it as 'recollection' or 'remembrance' which I've read is a more accurate description. I'm sorry I don't have the energy to hunt down where I read it.
:anjali:
Sounds like something Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote, and Gombrich bemoans "mindfulness" for sati as ridiculous in a footnote in What the Buddha Taught. I prefer "awareness" to "mindfulness."

Blame it on TNH!
DL :heart:
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Satipatthana: instructions for Vipassana?

Post by PeterB »

Wales just bursts with hands on courses in Vipassana.

:anjali:
Post Reply