Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
chownah
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by chownah »

Soe Win Htut wrote: Dear Chownah,

Your question is very good.
Some may think it means to abandon all good or bad.

What I mean the word "abandon" or " let go " is not to attach and cling all things including the truth but they are just to be used only, experieced only and known only.

My real meaning of the word "Letting go or abandoning" is not to attach and grasp anything such as something, someone, the truth, this way or that way but
to accept anything such as something, someone, the truth, this way or that way are just to used only, experienced only and known only.

The truth of "one Citta at a time" or whatever truth or way, are not to be attached or grasped but for utilization only, expericing only and knowing only for real enlightenment.

This is my more explanation with ebooks;

http://www.mediafire.com/trueanswer#7hb2ej9drp3g4,1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta,
Soe Win Htut,
I think I do understand what you are saying here.....I think you are saying that we should abandon all things and by this you mean that we should not attach to anything at all including all ideas and anything that arises in our consciousness at all....and that we should not take any of these things to be part of some reality or anything other than something that arises and then passes away....and that to see them in any way other than as arising and passing away of experience is to attach or cling to them and that clinging is the source of all suffering (duhhka). I am in compete agreement with this.

I hope that you can see that I am not needing to be convinced about the abandoning of all phenomena as being empty of self and not worth clinging to......I am just wondering about the title of this thread and why it was chosen. I can see that when understood a certain way it is compatible with what you are saying but I can also see how it can be misunderstood by beginners and perhaps might lead them astray. Also, since everything that arises should be abandoned I don't know why you have emphasized abandoning the idea of abandoning things by placing it in the title. I still do not know if you are trying to say that everything that arises should be abandoned but there is one special thing that should be abandoned and that special thing is the idea of abandoning things....it seems to me that certainly the idea of abandoning things is something to be abandoned but I don't know why you are giving it special treatment by placing it in the title of this thread. I have ideas about why it might deserve special attention but I'm wanting to know why you might think that it is especially important to abandon.
chownah
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ground
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by ground »

Soe Win Htut wrote: What I mean the word "abandon" or " let go " is not to attach and cling all things including the truth but they are just to be used only, experieced only and known only.
This is what the Buddha teaches. In the Sabba Sutta he teaches that the All is "Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas."
In the Adittapariyaya Sutta he teaches to renounce this All and all its creations.

But when nama is emptied of feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention I feel that the more appropriate linguistic expression would actually be "cessation of usage and experience and knowing of things".


Kind regards
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Soe Win Htut
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by Soe Win Htut »

chownah wrote:
Soe Win Htut,
I think I do understand what you are saying here.....I think you are saying that we should abandon all things and by this you mean that we should not attach to anything at all including all ideas and anything that arises in our consciousness at all....and that we should not take any of these things to be part of some reality or anything other than something that arises and then passes away....and that to see them in any way other than as arising and passing away of experience is to attach or cling to them and that clinging is the source of all suffering (duhhka). I am in compete agreement with this.

I hope that you can see that I am not needing to be convinced about the abandoning of all phenomena as being empty of self and not worth clinging to......I am just wondering about the title of this thread and why it was chosen. I can see that when understood a certain way it is compatible with what you are saying but I can also see how it can be misunderstood by beginners and perhaps might lead them astray. Also, since everything that arises should be abandoned I don't know why you have emphasized abandoning the idea of abandoning things by placing it in the title. I still do not know if you are trying to say that everything that arises should be abandoned but there is one special thing that should be abandoned and that special thing is the idea of abandoning things....it seems to me that certainly the idea of abandoning things is something to be abandoned but I don't know why you are giving it special treatment by placing it in the title of this thread. I have ideas about why it might deserve special attention but I'm wanting to know why you might think that it is especially important to abandon.
chownah
Dear Chownah,
Yes thanks for your reply.
I feel you can catch my meaning.
What I mean the word of "abandon" or "let go" is " NOT TO ATTACH AS REALITY BUT JUST TO BE USED ONLY, EXPERIENCED ONLY AND KNOWN ONLY".

I give the title because most of the Buddhists have already known and have the idea that everything that arises or worldly things should be abandoned.
But they attach and grasp that idea which can be called wisdom.
In fact every idea or worldly things are just to be used only, experienced only, and knowing only but they are not for grasping and attaching. as reality (original truth).

What I mean is not concerned with the abandonment(Not to attach and grasp) the things in physically and directly.
What I mean is the abandonment(Not to attach and grasp) the things in mentally.

eg. If you have a car. What I mean is not for to abandonment(letting go) the car physically or directly but just attachment upon it in mentally.
If a thought or an emotion arises, What I mean is not to abandon it directly but just abandon the attachment and taking as reality upon it.
If a idea of abandoning things arises, What I mean is not to abandon it directly but just to abandon the attachment upon it.

What I mean of letting go is not directly upon the object but just ATTACHMENT & GRASPING UPON IT AS REALITY.
ANY OBJECT OR ANY IDEA IS JUST TO BE USED ONLY, EXPERIENCED ONLY AND KNOWN ONLY.

My thread is intended for introducing Dhammanupansana.

Dhammanupassana is intended not to grasp and attach not only the meditation objects but also even the wisdom or vipassana insight.
Dhammanupassana intends to abandon the attachment upon the meditation objects but also the observing mind(wisdom).

The wisdom or vipassana insight is just a kind of mind in Sankhara loka (conditioned nature). If we attach or grasp any idea or wisdom which is in Sankhara loka (conditioned nature), we will never go beyond the Sankhara loka (conditioned nature),

Thanks a lot for your questions and curiosity.

with kind regards,
Last edited by Soe Win Htut on Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known onlyWithout rejecting and attaching them with the idea of reality.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is changing from the volitional action to action-only, attachment to detachment, misunderstanding to right understanding.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Soe Win Htut
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by Soe Win Htut »

TMingyur wrote:
Soe Win Htut wrote: What I mean the word "abandon" or " let go " is not to attach and cling all things including the truth but they are just to be used only, experieced only and known only.
This is what the Buddha teaches. In the Sabba Sutta he teaches that the All is "Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas."
In the Adittapariyaya Sutta he teaches to renounce this All and all its creations.

But when nama is emptied of feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention I feel that the more appropriate linguistic expression would actually be "cessation of usage and experience and knowing of things".


Kind regards
Thanks a lot for giving some references sutta ;

with metta,
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known onlyWithout rejecting and attaching them with the idea of reality.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is changing from the volitional action to action-only, attachment to detachment, misunderstanding to right understanding.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
chownah
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by chownah »

Soe Win Htut wrote:My thread is intended for introducing Dhammanupansana.
Dhammanupassana is intended not to grasp and attach not only the meditation objects but also even the wisdom or vipassana insight.
Dhammanupassana intends to abandon the attachment upon the meditation objects but also the observing mind(wisdom).

The wisdom or vipassana insight is just a kind of mind in Sankhara loka (conditioned nature). If we attach or grasp any idea or wisdom which is in Sankhara loka (conditioned nature), we will never go beyond the Sankhara loka (conditioned nature),

Thanks a lot for your questions and curiosity.

with kind regards,
Soe Win Htut,
Thank you for having patience in replying to my questions. I see now what you were saying with the title and I agree with it whole heartedly. Indeed we should not attach to ideas like truth or wisdom but only observe them just as we do other things which arise in our experience...I think that by grasping at truth and wisdom is like grasping at an anchor which will hold us back from progressing....but if we observe them and let them go then they will help us progress toward more refined ideas and eventually we hope to selfless awakening.
chownah
P.S. Since you are introducing Dhammanupansana maybe this link will help people like me who are not so familiar with the term...it is a link to Nayanatiloka's Dictionary for the word "Satipatthāna":
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... #satipatth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;āna
It talks about Dhammānupassanā being the last of the 4 foundations of awareness or mindfulness. Here is an excerpt of that section under the "satipatthana" definition:

"..............
4: Concerning the mental-objects dhammānupassanā he knows whether one of the five hindrances nīvarana is present in him or not, knows how it arises, how it is overcome, and how in future it does no more arise. He knows the nature of each of the five groups khandha, how they arise, and how they are dissolved. He knows the 12 bases of all mental activity āyatana : the eye and the visual object, the ear and the audible object,.. mind and mental-object, he knows the mental chains samyojana based on them, knows how they arise, how they are overcome, and how in future they do no more arise. He knows whether one of the seven factors of enlightenment bojjhanga is present in him or not, knows how it arises, and how it comes to full development. Each of the Four Noble Truths sacca he understands according to reality.

................"

This is just a short excerpt and I suggest people who are not familiar with the term "dhammanupassana" read the entire "satipatthana" definition for some quick background.

chownah
chownah
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by chownah »

TMingyur,
Thanks so much for getting the two links into this topic as they are in my opinion key to the discussion. I'm especially happy that you posted the Adittapariyaya Sutta link:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I had forgotten about this sutta and wish I had put it into that other thread on whether Theravada is realist of not. In my view it is really a very clear statement on how the Buddha wants us to understand and relate to the All.....thanks again!
chownah
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by manas »

.
Last edited by manas on Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Soe Win Htut
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by Soe Win Htut »

chownah wrote: Soe Win Htut,
Thank you for having patience in replying to my questions. I see now what you were saying with the title and I agree with it whole heartedly. Indeed we should not attach to ideas like truth or wisdom but only observe them just as we do other things which arise in our experience...I think that by grasping at truth and wisdom is like grasping at an anchor which will hold us back from progressing....but if we observe them and let them go then they will help us progress toward more refined ideas and eventually we hope to selfless awakening.
chownah
P.S. Since you are introducing Dhammanupansana maybe this link will help people like me who are not so familiar with the term...it is a link to Nayanatiloka's Dictionary for the word "Satipatthāna":
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... #satipatth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;āna
It talks about Dhammānupassanā being the last of the 4 foundations of awareness or mindfulness. Here is an excerpt of that section under the "satipatthana" definition:

"..............
4: Concerning the mental-objects dhammānupassanā he knows whether one of the five hindrances nīvarana is present in him or not, knows how it arises, how it is overcome, and how in future it does no more arise. He knows the nature of each of the five groups khandha, how they arise, and how they are dissolved. He knows the 12 bases of all mental activity āyatana : the eye and the visual object, the ear and the audible object,.. mind and mental-object, he knows the mental chains samyojana based on them, knows how they arise, how they are overcome, and how in future they do no more arise. He knows whether one of the seven factors of enlightenment bojjhanga is present in him or not, knows how it arises, and how it comes to full development. Each of the Four Noble Truths sacca he understands according to reality.

................"

This is just a short excerpt and I suggest people who are not familiar with the term "dhammanupassana" read the entire "satipatthana" definition for some quick background.

chownah
Dear Chownah,

Thanks a lot for your P.S and comments.

We will need to contemplate "everything(conditioned natrue) is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self."
And then, It is necessary to contemplate(not to forget) that "the former contemplation of everything is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self" is also impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self."

With kind regards,
Last edited by Soe Win Htut on Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known onlyWithout rejecting and attaching them with the idea of reality.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is changing from the volitional action to action-only, attachment to detachment, misunderstanding to right understanding.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Soe Win Htut
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by Soe Win Htut »

dhamma follower wrote:
Sadhu!

I've had the privilege to meet Sayadaw Ottamassara and listen to his teaching directly from Him. It was a very powerful experience, as I clearly witnessed a direct "transmission" of understanding.

His teaching is not easily discernible with words, but when it happens, it is of great value !

Thanks Soe Win Htut for sharing this!

regards,
Welcome Dhamma friend, Dhamma follower.

Thanks a lot and 3x Sadhu for listening to mp3 talks directly.
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known onlyWithout rejecting and attaching them with the idea of reality.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is changing from the volitional action to action-only, attachment to detachment, misunderstanding to right understanding.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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ground
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by ground »

Soe Win Htut wrote: We will need to contemplate "everything(conditioned natrue) is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self."
And then, It is necessary to contemplate(not to forget) that "the former contemplation of everything is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self" is also impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self."
There seems to be an error. Thinking that the 2nd contemplation is necessary results from not recognizing that there is nothing beyond the "everything" mention in the context of the 1st contemplation. I guess the conditioned "leftover" of the 1st contemplation is the felt agent that seems to do the contemplation. If this leftover is included in the 1st then who do you want to persuade with the 2nd?


kind regards
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Soe Win Htut
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by Soe Win Htut »

TMingyur wrote:
Soe Win Htut wrote: We will need to contemplate "everything(conditioned natrue) is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self."
And then, It is necessary to contemplate(not to forget) that "the former contemplation of everything is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self" is also impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self."
There seems to be an error. Thinking that the 2nd contemplation is necessary results from not recognizing that there is nothing beyond the "everything" mention in the context of the 1st contemplation. I guess the conditioned "leftover" of the 1st contemplation is the felt agent that seems to do the contemplation. If this leftover is included in the 1st then who do you want to persuade with the 2nd?


kind regards
Dear TMingyur ,

Your pointing out is very good and right.

In theory, first contemplation of "everything(conditioned nature) is impermanent and non-self" is also included in everything (conditioned nature).
The first contemplation can be known as insight/wisdom. (Magga sacca).

But in practice, I think most meditators may forget the first contemplation(insight/wisdom) is also included in everything (conditioned nature) which is impermanent and non-self.
So what I mean really is also to know that __
" first contemplation of "everything(conditioned nature) is impermanent and non-self" is also included in everything (conditioned nature) which is impermanent and non-self"
and it is necessary not to forget that it should be contemplated too. That knowing will become the 2nd contemplation after 1st contemplation. It can be known as contemplation upon wisdom/insight/mindfulness again.

eg. Contemplating that pain is impermanent, arise. (1st)
And then " knowing that "Contemplating that pain is impermanent" is also impermanent," arise. (2nd)

What I mean is not to forget that the insight/wisdom/understanding of impermanence is also impermanent.
"Magga sacca is also included in Dukkha Sacca" and Magga sacca is also just to be used only, experienced only and known only but not to be attached and grasped as my way and my raft.

Thanks a lot for your insight question:
kind regards,
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known onlyWithout rejecting and attaching them with the idea of reality.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is changing from the volitional action to action-only, attachment to detachment, misunderstanding to right understanding.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

dhamma follower wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:51 am ...
His teaching is not easily discernible with words, but when it happens, it is of great value !
...

Thanks for mentioning this: "not easily discernible with words".

Regarding his instructions on Mogok Sayadaw's method, I liked his guided meditation very much. [imo, he is familiar with quite a few lineages including The-in-gu, Sunlun, U Ba Khin [IMC] as well as Goenka.]

However, until quite recently, I was not a fan of his own-style teachings. Even tho' these talks are in very simple words and in simple sentences in our own native language, I didn't understand much. Almost all talks/guided meditations seemed the same with the only boring recurring theme of "non-identification/non-attachment" from different aspects, and I couldn't & didn't pay much attention to them. And, I even thought "What on earth has happened to this Sayadaw's teachings?"

Recently, I somehow happened to give a few hours to his talks, and things seemed to start falling into places regarding his teachings, understandings, attitudes and doings. And, inadvertently, even the MN1 suddenly seemed somewhat more manageable to me.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
SteRo
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by SteRo »

Soe Win Htut wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:33 am In 2002, a monk has appeared in Myanmar to solve the problem in Myanmar. His name is U Ottamasara, Abbot of Than-lyin Natural Medtation Center, Yangon, Myanmar(Burma).
Now his teaching is becoming well known in Myanmar_Burma.

He teaches the Dhammaupassana, letting go of the idea of something, someone, somewhere, sometime as reality and as of real importance.(i.e. His teaching is just trying to abandon or discard the idea(mind-action) of centering, emphasizing, and attaching upon something, someone, somewhere, sometime and dualistic knowing such as hotness-coldness, pain-pleasure, good-bad, likes-dislikes, rising-falling, tightness-looseness etc; as reality and as of real importance).
Great teaching!
No reality -> no importance. And dual mutual dependence -> no reality.

:thumbsup:

A variant of this teaching is that the aggregates are empty, void, and non-substantial
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
beanyan
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Re: Letting go of the idea of letting go of something

Post by beanyan »

Soe Win Htut wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:34 pm We will need to contemplate "everything(conditioned natrue) is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self."
And then, It is necessary to contemplate(not to forget) that "the former contemplation of everything is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self" is also impermanent, unsatisfactory, and non-self."
Kind of like you contemplate that the body is not your self and therefore you should not give in to sexual lust, yet then you also contemplate the "so what" that goes along with that of although the body is not me in the strictest sense due to its impermanence, still in some sense it is for now and I have to take care of it so I will totally brush my teeth and not let them rot out of my head. Something like that?
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