Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:52 am

alan wrote:You can do better than that, tilt. Your complaint is not specific.
It simply matched your complaint in depth and acuity.
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby alan » Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:06 am

I would seriously doubt your account of the meditation techniques used, Bhikku Pesala. Since you are quoting scriptures, can you show us an example?
For the point of discussion, it should be plain to see that the understanding of past lives was a product of the Buddha's awakening. Can anyone dispute this? If so, please show.
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:26 am

alan wrote:I would seriously doubt your account of the meditation techniques used, Bhikkhu Pesala. Since you are quoting scriptures, can you show us an example? For the point of discussion, it should be plain to see that the understanding of past lives was a product of the Buddha's awakening. Can anyone dispute this? If so, please show.

I could dispute this, but I find your response not worthy of consideration. I certainly don't have time to go searching for references to dispute with every sceptic who posts on these forums. From the sceptic's POV, what it says in the texts and commentaries is not trustworthy, so even if shown the original Pāli, the sceptic will remain unconvinced. To dispute any further will merely disrupt the thread from its original purpose, which was to reconcile the Buddha's teachings with Dr Ian Stevenson's accounts.
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby Nori » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:20 am

James the Giant wrote:We missed the boat there. He died some time ago.
He might still be available though, we just have to find the right child and ask the right questions.


---

I found him..

Last edited by Nori on Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby cooran » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:42 am

Hello all,

This may be of interest to some. An interview with Dr. Ian Stevenson:
Scientific Proof of Reincarnation - Dr. Ian Stevenson's Life Work
"Either he [Dr. Stevenson] is making a colossal mistake. Or he will be known as the Galileo of the 20th century." Dr Harold Lief in the Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease
• About Dr. Ian Stevenson
• Omni Magazine's Interview with Dr. Ian Stevenson
• Sweet Swarnlata: An Example Case of Dr. Ian Stevenson's
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm

with metta
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby Zom » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:03 am

Hi
In the studies of Ian Stevenson about memories of children concerning their past lives, I find three things which don't quite fit with the Buddha's teachings:
1°) They were humans each time in their previous lives (not animals, petas...etc...)
2°) They were reborn in a place near where they lived before
3°) There is sometimes several weeks or months between the death and the rebirth.
How do U explain all these facts.



1. I think that is because such child memories are possible only in human-human rebirth. If you will will be reborn as a human from some other plane of existance, perhaps, you won't remember that.

2. As far as I know that is not always the case. But actually there is no problem and no contradiction to Buddha's teaching on rebirth. I would even say otherwise - this is a proof to the cases of reincarnation in pali canon.

3. I think there IS an intermediate state of existence (as sarvastivadins said, for example). There are some proofs for that in pali canon.
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby DarwidHalim » Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:58 pm

Sacha G wrote:Hi
In the studies of Ian Stevenson about memories of children concerning their past lives, I find three things which don't quite fit with the Buddha's teachings:
1°) They were humans each time in their previous lives (not animals, petas...etc...)
2°) They were reborn in a place near where they lived before
3°) There is sometimes several weeks or months between the death and the rebirth.
How do U explain all these facts.
Sacha G :bow:


I don't see the contradiction with Buddhism.
1. It is not necessary we are not human in our previous life. We can be human.
2. They can born anywhere, not restricted to any places.
3. There is a teaching by Indian Buddhist master about the period between death and rebirth. The period is 49 days or lesser.
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby alan » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:19 am

I'm not a sceptic, Bhikkhu Pesala. I'm just asking a question.
Was the understanding of rebirth a part of the Buddha's awakening? I say yes. What do you say?
Can children remember their past lives? I say no.
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:42 am

alan wrote:I'm not a sceptic, Bhikkhu Pesala. I'm just asking a question.
Was the understanding of rebirth a part of the Buddha's awakening? I say yes. What do you say?
Can children remember their past lives? I say no.
Have you carefully looked at Stevenson's research?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby alan » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:53 am

That is a reply, not an answer.
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:00 am

alan wrote:That is a reply, not an answer.
That is a question that goes directly to the OP and to your proclaimation, which gives rise to the question: Have you carefully read through any of Dr Stevenson's research?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby alan » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:09 am

Have you? If so, please tell.
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:15 am

alan wrote:Have you? If so, please tell.
The question is direct to you and your proclaimation:

Alan wrote:Can children remember their past lives? I say no.


If you have not carefully read any of Stevenson's research, your dismissal of it holds no water.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby alan » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:20 am

But I could say the same thing to you. Have you read him, and if so, what proves his assertions?
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:48 am

alan wrote:But I could say the same thing to you.
You can but you would be inaccurate.
Have you read him, and if so, what proves his assertions?
Yes, and you are doing your best to avoid answering the question put to you by trying to counter my question with your question. Answer the question that was put to you first.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:57 am

Image

In chess and some other abstract strategy games, the threefold repetition rule (also known as repetition of position) states that a player can claim a draw if the same position occurs three times, or will occur after their next move, with the same player to move. The repeated positions need not occur in succession. The idea behind the rule is that if the position is repeated three times, no progress is being made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threefold_repetition
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby alan » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:08 am

I don't get you, tilt. Sometimes you seem smart. But other times you seem to pursue arguments for no good reason. Why do you do that?
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:Image

In chess and some other abstract strategy games, the threefold repetition rule (also known as repetition of position) states that a player can claim a draw if the same position occurs three times, or will occur after their next move, with the same player to move. The repeated positions need not occur in succession. The idea behind the rule is that if the position is repeated three times, no progress is being made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threefold_repetition
So, rather than actually engage the game, one can do a two-step side-step to avoid a loss, it gets called a draw. Fortunately there is no such rule in debate.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby DarwidHalim » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:31 am

Hahaha. A bit funny this debate.

I read some of Ian Stevenson case study, he has a case where the child clearly remember his past lives. He trace it back to see whether the child story is same or not.

If you go to YouTube, there are also so many cases you can see the child remember their past lives.

If you have open mind and not sectarian, I recommend you to see this documentary movie called "unmistaken child". This real documentary is available in YouTube. Please search for it.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby PeterB » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:26 am

Ah yes.....however having an open mind can cut one of several ways.
The statement " having an open mind means that you will respond to data in the same way as me " is at best dubious.
I was once a rebirth literalist. A position I maintained for decades. Now I am open minded.
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