Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
daverupa
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by daverupa »

Zom wrote::goodpost:

Yes, indeed - doubting in rebirth means that your Right View factor is not yet complete.
Oh?
MN 9 wrote:The Wholesome and the Unwholesome

3. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

4. "And what, friends, is the unwholesome, what is the root of the unwholesome, what is the wholesome, what is the root of the wholesome? Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome.

5. "And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.

6. "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome.

7. "And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome.

8. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma."
There's only one section in the entirety of MN 9 that makes even an oblique reference to rebirth (24-27, from within 1-71), and the whole thing is couched within terms of alternative and equivalent ways of coming to Right View. The idea that rebirth is a necessary part of Right View is wholly incorrect.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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kirk5a
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by kirk5a »

daverupa wrote: There's only one section in the entirety of MN 9 that makes even an oblique reference to rebirth (24-27, from within 1-71), and the whole thing is couched within terms of alternative and equivalent ways of coming to Right View. The idea that rebirth is a necessary part of Right View is wholly incorrect.
Oh?
A2. "Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view.
...
B2. "Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is a next world' is his right view.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Debates like this cast Western Buddhists in an embarrassing light. Cultural Buddhists seem to either accept canonical rebirth and all the local underpinnings of mythos at face value, or they are openly skeptical, all without the condescension I have right-view and you don’t, and without the specious science of Mr. Stevenson to help support some dogma.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
PeterB
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by PeterB »

:goodpost:
My thoughts exactly.
In would seem that for some their need to belong to a club, to comfort themselves by identifying themselves as part of an inner core of true believers overwhelms what in other circumstances would trip the most clanging of alarm bells.
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Aloka
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by Aloka »

PeterB wrote: the most clanging of alarm bells.
Ding- dong ! :D
PeterB
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by PeterB »

Its the Avon Lady !
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Aloka
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by Aloka »

PeterB wrote:Its the Avon Lady !

Lol, you guessed, Peter ! :D
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pilgrim
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by pilgrim »

ancientbuddhism wrote:Debates like this cast Western Buddhists in an embarrassing light. Cultural Buddhists seem to either accept canonical rebirth and all the local underpinnings of mythos at face value, or they are openly skeptical, all without the condescension I have right-view and you don’t, and without the specious science of Mr. Stevenson to help support some dogma.
Indeed....for millenia, Buddhists practise the Dhamma for one purpose only, the ending of rebirth. It takes a Western Buddhist to turn the Dhamma into a feel good therapy.
PeterB
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by PeterB »

Really ? My understanding is that the purpose of the Dhamma is the ending of Dukkha. In whatever life.
daverupa
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by daverupa »

kirk5a wrote:
daverupa wrote: There's only one section in the entirety of MN 9 that makes even an oblique reference to rebirth (24-27, from within 1-71), and the whole thing is couched within terms of alternative and equivalent ways of coming to Right View. The idea that rebirth is a necessary part of Right View is wholly incorrect.
Oh?
A2. "Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view.
...
B2. "Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is a next world' is his right view.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MN 60 is preached to brahmin householders and incorporates rebirth as a component of right view based on this audience.

MN 9 is preached to bhikkhus who repeatedly ask Sariputta "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" and rebirth shows up after a number of other descriptions are explicated, and other descriptions without rebirth follow along, all of it summing Right View, whence the name of this Sutta.

In other words, MN 9 showcases that rebirth is one among many, and definitely not the only way, which is your claim. MN 60, your evidence for rebirth-as-required, rather showcases that the Buddha felt that these brahmin householders would benefit from having the rebirth assumption accepted for argument's sake as a way of setting up a version of Pascal's wager for them, the "safe bet" approach for which the Sutta was named.
daverupa wrote:The idea that rebirth is a necessary part of Right View is wholly incorrect.
Still standing.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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pilgrim
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by pilgrim »

PeterB wrote:Really ? My understanding is that the purpose of the Dhamma is the ending of Dukkha. In whatever life.
A case in point.... ;)
PeterB
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by PeterB »

Which means what exactly ?
The ending of Dukkha is relevant whether one takes a One Life or Three Lives model.
The ending of Rebirth only works with the latter.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by tiltbillings »

Now this becoming another truth of rebirth thread, which was not part of the OP. Either keep the OP in mind, or take it to the "Great rebirth debate."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by Mr Man »

pilgrim wrote: Indeed....for millenia, Buddhists practise the Dhamma for one purpose only, the ending of rebirth. It takes a Western Buddhist to turn the Dhamma into a feel good therapy.
?????
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Aloka
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by Aloka »

PeterB wrote:Really ? My understanding is that the purpose of the Dhamma is the ending of Dukkha. In whatever life.
My understanding also.
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