One "citta" at a time

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries

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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 13, 2010 1:28 am

Greetings Anicca,

Anicca wrote:pS: you really do look like Andre Agassi in your avatar! Are you related???? :anjali:

That does it... I'll have to get a new avatar.

:tongue:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 13, 2010 1:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Anicca,

Anicca wrote:pS: you really do look like Andre Agassi in your avatar! Are you related???? :anjali:

That does it... I'll have to get a new avatar.

:tongue:

Metta,
Retro. :)

Try this one:
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This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby Anicca » Thu May 13, 2010 1:59 am

retrofuturist wrote:That does it... I'll have to get a new avatar.

Try for one without that tennis/Buddhist "Love means nothing to me" look in your eye.... :oops: :offtopic: :rules:
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby robertk » Thu May 13, 2010 2:10 am

acinteyyo wrote:It seems to me that citta according to Abhidhamma and commentarial literature is equal to what is conventionally meant by "consciousness" (in contrast to viññāna), but also includes viññāna.

Viññāna, citta and mano are synonyms- they are they same element - so it is confusing when you say citta also includes vinnana.
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby acinteyyo » Thu May 13, 2010 9:56 pm

robertk wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:It seems to me that citta according to Abhidhamma and commentarial literature is equal to what is conventionally meant by "consciousness" (in contrast to viññāna), but also includes viññāna.

Viññāna, citta and mano are synonyms- they are they same element - so it is confusing when you say citta also includes vinnana.

I don't think so. But if it's really that simple it would be contradicting D.O.. There is not only one viññāna at a time and it doesn't have to cease completely before the next one can arise. This would be more like "after this, that is" instead of "when this is, that is" like D.O. is defined by the suttas.

Currently I have a lot of work to do, so I'll need more time to think about all this. Maybe I'll find some more time this weekend.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 14, 2010 12:50 am

acinteyyo wrote:
robertk wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:It seems to me that citta according to Abhidhamma and commentarial literature is equal to what is conventionally meant by "consciousness" (in contrast to viññāna), but also includes viññāna.

Viññāna, citta and mano are synonyms- they are they same element - so it is confusing when you say citta also includes vinnana.

I don't think so.

"That which is called citta is also called mano, and is called viññāna." S II
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 14, 2010 7:59 am

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:"That which is called citta is also called mano, and is called viññāna." S II

Can you explain what the reference "S II" is to? If it's a Sutta reference a little more detail on where exactly to find it would be helpful.

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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 14, 2010 1:08 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:"That which is called citta is also called mano, and is called viññāna." S II

Can you explain what the reference "S II" is to? If it's a Sutta reference a little more detail on where exactly to find it would be helpful.

Mike

Samyutta Nikaya SN II 95. Page 595 in Ven Bodhi's translation. And here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby acinteyyo » Fri May 14, 2010 5:50 pm

acinteyyo wrote:
robertk wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:It seems to me that citta according to Abhidhamma and commentarial literature is equal to what is conventionally meant by "consciousness" (in contrast to viññāna), but also includes viññāna.

Viññāna, citta and mano are synonyms- they are they same element - so it is confusing when you say citta also includes vinnana.

I don't think so.

tiltbillings wrote:"That which is called citta is also called mano, and is called viññāna." S II

Wonderful! This is exactly what I thought citta means, but this doesn't fit with the "one citta at a time"-thing of the Abhidhamma, because it's contradicting D.O.. That's why it seems to me Abhidhamma probably has another definition for "citta" and is the reason for the "I don't think so" I wrote above.

Tilt, do you understand what contradiction I'm trying to point out between Abhidhamma and Sutta with respect to "citta"? This is the reason why I try to understand in which way Abhidhamma defines "citta", equally or differently to the Sutta definition?

How can it be that citta/mano/viññāna is supposed to cease completely before the next one can arise although the cause for it's arising (namely avijja) still exists? Or in other words, let's consider the eye-consciousness for a moment, it arises when the eye (sight) and visible forms (in the world of the puthujjana, which is panc'upadanakhandha having its origin in avijja) come together, please anybody try to tell me when there isn't the case that visible forms and sight doesn't come together at all so that the cause for the arising of eye-consciousness ceases which would enable the related eye-consciousness to cease?

Somewhere, I don't remember exactely right now where, the Buddha said: "arising is manifest, change while standing is manifest, cessation is manifest". It seems to me that "change while standing" possibly has not been understood correctly.
IMHO citta arises because of conditions, changes during "existence" and ceases finally, when the cause which is responsible for it to arise ceases. This process can take a long time and for the case if avijja is the cause for cittas arising (puthujjana related citta), it lasts changing until avijja ceases, which means it changes while standing until one reaches enlightenment.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby retrofuturist » Fri May 14, 2010 10:17 pm

Greetings acinteyyo,

Further to my earlier post, you seem to have come across a "perceived discrepency" in the sum basket of Mahavihara and Tipitaka materials.

Summarized, your options are as follows:

- If you are uncertain whether the perceived discrepency is real, you may continue to dig deeper here with a view of resolving it
- If you are certain that the discrepency is real, accept to yourself that it is what it is, and take it out of this sub-forum

I hope that helps guide you appropriately.

Thanks.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 14, 2010 10:41 pm

Acinteyyo, Retro,

As far as I understand my reading of the CMA and the Suttas, and expositions by Bhikkhu Bodhi and others, the Abhidhamma does use terminology in a different way (e.g. whether nama-rupa includes consciousness or not).

I think that if this is not appreciated it can cause confusion, so in my opinion it is very much on-topic in the Abhidhamma forum to clarify how to reconcile the (real or perceived) differences. (A completely separate issue from arguing about the superiority of the various approaches, which would be way off-topic... ).

The Appendix to Ven Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... append.htm can be useful for disentangling some of this.
Cetasika: This term occurs often in the old sutta texts, but only as adj. (e.g. cetasikam sukham etc.) or, at times, used as a sing. neut. noun (e.g. D. 1; p. 213, PTS). As a designation for mental properties, or properties of consciousness citta-sampayuttā dhammā it is frequently met with in Dhs. (§ 1189, 1512) as cetasika-dhamma while in Vis.M, Abh. S., etc., cetasika is used also as a neuter noun, in the sense of mental phenomenon.

Citta-vīthi: as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes of consciousness, such as āvajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santīrana, votthapana, javana, tadārammana, bhavanga, cuti: none of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana in Pts.M. Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice or thrice briefly mentioned. The stages, however, must have been more or less known. Cf. e.g Patth: ''cakkhu-viññānam tam sampayuttakā ca dhammā (= cetasikā) mano-dhātuyā (performing the sampaticchana-function),tam sampayuttakānañ ca dhammānam (cetasikānani) anantara-paccayena paccayo. Mano-dhātu... manoviññāna-dhātuya (performing the santīrana and votthapana function). Purimā purimā kusalā dhammā (javanā) pacchimānam pacchimānam kusalānam dhammānam (javanacittānam) anantara-paccayena paccayo... avyākatānam dhammānam (tadārammana- and bhavanga-cittānam. ).

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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 15, 2010 1:51 am

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mind/00_toc.htm

This book might of value, but I have no idea. In quickly paging through it, it does have tons of references to Pali sources. My favorite bit that caught my attention was the subsection tiltled: Giddy-Patted Heart. I am not sure I want one of those.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby Dhammanando » Sat May 15, 2010 7:57 am

acinteyyo wrote:I don't think so. But if it's really that simple it would be contradicting D.O.. There is not only one viññāna at a time and it doesn't have to cease completely before the next one can arise. This would be more like "after this, that is" instead of "when this is, that is" like D.O. is defined by the suttas.


I think you are falling into the same error as Nyanavira Thera: that of supposing that a temporal locative construction like "imasmi.m sati, ida.m hoti" necessarily indicates the simultaneity of the two things or events. But this simply isn't so.

Such a construction in Pali is every bit as ambiguous as a "when... then..." sentence in English. In both languages the relationship between the referents of the two clauses may be one of simultaneity OR subsequence OR consequence.
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby Sylvester » Wed May 19, 2010 4:42 am

Dear Ven Dhammanando

Might you be referring to what Warder terms the "locative absolute"? It does seem that Ven Nanavira's application of the simultaneity option in the temporal locative was the basis for his one-life model of Dependant Origination.

May I ask a big favour pls? Could you point out some instances of the locative absolute in the MN and SN? It would really help if you could use Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations of the MN and SN, and direct me to a few examples of such temporal locatives.

Is the temporal locative used to regulate only relations between nouns, or is it also applied to a set of 2 or more verbs?

Many thanks in advance.
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby acinteyyo » Sat May 22, 2010 2:58 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:I don't think so. But if it's really that simple it would be contradicting D.O.. There is not only one viññāna at a time and it doesn't have to cease completely before the next one can arise. This would be more like "after this, that is" instead of "when this is, that is" like D.O. is defined by the suttas.


I think you are falling into the same error as Nyanavira Thera: that of supposing that a temporal locative construction like "imasmi.m sati, ida.m hoti" necessarily indicates the simultaneity of the two things or events. But this simply isn't so.

Such a construction in Pali is every bit as ambiguous as a "when... then..." sentence in English. In both languages the relationship between the referents of the two clauses may be one of simultaneity OR subsequence OR consequence.

I disagree. Imho it's not at all comparable with a "when... then..." sentence in english.
I try to explain why I think so. If anybody sees any mistakes in my explanation, please tell me.

"imasmiṃ" is the singular masculine locative of "ayaṃ" meaning "he" or "this".
"sati" is the locative of sat/sant, which is a preposition of "atthi" meaning "to be", the meaning of "sati" is "being".
"idaṃ" is a singular neuter locative of "ayaṃ" meaning "it" or "this".
"hoti" means "to be" or "to exist"
So,"imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti" literelly transleted is: "he/this being it/this is/exists" or "this being that is". "this being" in other words means "when this is" or "while this is", and therefore it should be understood as: "when this is, that is" or "while this is, that is". In my humble opinion this necessarily indicates simultaneity. It is not the same like "when this, then that" which leaves such a construcion being ambiguous, like you pointed out already.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:58 am

Anicca wrote: Well, that same 'nothing' persists from one moment to the next in this life too.


What about paccaya though? Doesn't one moment arise in dependence on the previous one - in some sense?

P
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby Anicca » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:37 pm

Howdy Porpoise!
porpoise wrote:
Anicca wrote: Well, that same 'nothing' persists from one moment to the next in this life too.


What about paccaya though? Doesn't one moment arise in dependence on the previous one - in some sense?

P

Yes - excellent point.

I need to learn so much more - this is from here:

G. Patthana Pali (the Book of Causal Relationship)
Patthana forming the last book brings together all relationship in a coordinated form to show that the dhamma do not exist as isolated entities but they constitute a well ordered system in which the smallest unit conditions the rest of it and is also being conditioned in return.
The arrangement of the system is so very intricate, complex, highly thorough and complete that it earns for this treatise the reputation of being deep, profound and unfathomable.

It arranges all conditioned things ( 22 tika and 100 duka ) under twenty-four kinds of relations, describes and classifies them into a complete system for understanding the mechanics of the universe of dhamma.

The whole work is divided into four great divisions;

a. the studies of instances in which paccaya relations do exist between the dhammas.
b. the studies of instances in which paccaya relations do not exist between the dhammas.
c. the studies of instances in which some of the paccaya relations do exist between the dhammas
but the others do not.
d. the studies of instances in which some of the paccaya relations not do exist between the dhammas
but others do exist.


The 24 paccaya relations are applied to the four great divisions in six ways ;
a. in their 22 tika group
b. in their 100 duka group
c. in their 100 duka mixed with 22 tika groups
d. in their 22 tika mixed with 100 duka groups
e. in their 22 tika group mixed with one another
f. in their 100 duka group mixed with one another


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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby Soe Win Htut » Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:36 am

I just share the relation between the truth of "one citta at a time" and the insight meditation(Vipassana) and utilization it upon insight meditation according to the teaching of Ven Ottamasara, a insight meditation teacher from Myanmar.

At below link, you can download it (ebook of Utilization of the truth one citta at a time in Vipassana meditation)
http://www.mediafire.com/?x078w45yh6maa6a
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for real enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known only but .....they are not for noting, believing, confirming, centering and thinking as reality and real importance.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is just the abandoning the mind-action of centering, grasping, confirming, and attaching the created truths as reality and as of real importance.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:11 am

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Repeat offenders may be subject to disciplinary action.
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Postby Soe Win Htut » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:10 am

acinteyyo wrote:
My question is: What is the meaningn of "citta" according to Abhidhamma? Consciousness?

best wishes, acinteyyo


According to Abhidhamma, citta means "consciousness or mind". But "the citta or consciousness" in Abhidhamma is not as same as the consciousness that we are now understanding.

We should not take the mind or consiciousness we are now knowing is similar to citta the Buddha taught as the original truth (ultimate truth).
Because the time duration and the rate of vanishing of Citta (mind), cetasika (metal factors), and Rupa (energies) the Buddha taught as the original truth are totally different that of Citta, cetasika , and Rupa that our perception can now detect.

The time duration of one unit of citta or consciousness or mind consisting of three phases [arising or genesis (uppada) static or development (thiti), and cessation or dissolution (bhanga)] is even less than one-trillionth part of the time occupied by a flash of lightning which lasts for a microsecond (10^-6 second). The subcommentary takes the higher figure of 10^15. The subcommentary said that the mental elements (cittta & cetasika) arise and cease 10^15 x 10^6 = 10^21 times per second. Their extremely short duration is also mentioned in the Anguttara Nikaya.

To know the real meaning of citta and Utilization of the truth of "one citta at a time" in Vipassana meditation and daliy life:

http://www.mediafire.com/?x078w45yh6maa6a
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for real enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known only but .....they are not for noting, believing, confirming, centering and thinking as reality and real importance.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is just the abandoning the mind-action of centering, grasping, confirming, and attaching the created truths as reality and as of real importance.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/
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