Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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ground
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by ground »

If there isn't a teacher it may be required to meet one and if there is a one it may be required to take leave of the teacher.
What indicates what is required?
The hindrances.
Monks, there are these five hindrances. Which five? Sensual desire as a hindrance, ill will as a hindrance, sloth & drowsiness as a hindrance, restlessness & anxiety as a hindrance, and uncertainty as a hindrance. These are the five hindrances.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Kind regards
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mikenz66
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Alex,
Alex123 wrote: We live in 21st century. There are many good Dhamma books and suttas available some of which are for free. Why can't a person read a lot of good books and practice based on them? I understand that traditionally, centuries ago, there were NO books and no internet available so the only way one could learn was from a Teacher or a monk. Today the situation is different. It is possible to know more than a teacher by having read Nikayas, Abhidhamma, Visudhimagga, and many good meditation books. Regarding "personalized instructions". Typically on the interviews in popular methods the suggestions were all the same "just observe!" or "don't forget to label that". It seems rare to find someone who has different suggestions for different occasions and who can tweak instructions specifically for you rather than repeat the standard teaching in that Center. These are not hidden instructions and one can learn them, and more from books.
While it is true that routinely one might be told to "just keep going", the key thing about a competent real teacher is that s/he can tell when "just keep going" isn't going to work and give appropriate advice/correction.
Alex123 wrote: I also have a hunch that progress in meditation does NOT equal knowledge of more theory. So the meditation master doesn't have to know more than a newbie, the difference is in the skill at applying the basics.
I don't think theory is so important in any case (if by theory you mean being able to quote lots of suttas and/or commentaries). It's experience, as you say below.
Alex123 wrote: It is like in a case of a boxer. A beginner boxer who later becomes an advanced boxer can know exactly the same moves as before, but the advance boxer is better because of having practiced those moves hundreds of thousand times more than a beginner and can use them better.
And, again, the key thing that's obvious with competent teachers is that they have seen what the student is describing, both for themselves, and with a number of other students, and can therefore give good advice.
Sample exchange:
  • I'm noticing X, that seems odd...
    Do you notice Y as well?
    Yes (Hmm, how did he know that? Does he read minds?).
    OK, that's normal, try doing Z instead...
I don't have the experience to give advice about what is or isn't sensible to do without some backup from teachers (at least occasionally). Certainly, one can now get quite a lot of good advice by listening to retreat talks and discussions from the internet, where students ask typical questions, which may well turn out to be your question... I find that sort of discussion very helpful, but I'm not sure how helpful I'd find it if I hadn't had previous personal instruction...

:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

"Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?" No; however, a teacher can help greatly, especially when stuck or down a blind alley.
Typically on the interviews in popular methods the suggestions were all the same "just observe!" or "don't forget to label that".
And sometimes one simply needs to be told that over and over again.

Also, all the books in the world cannot protect one from the all too easy self-delusion that arises from wanting something special in one's practice, especially when one has an unusual experience or has a jhana experience. Way too easy to make more out those things than is really there.

Being your own meditation teacher is not unlike being your own lawyer.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by PeterB »

I would go further Mike. I think a lot of the online advice is positively UNhelpful.
Particularly from those who proffer advice on subjects like Vipassana when it it is clear that they have not received hands-on instruction themselves.
I could draw up a short list of same...probably so could anyone who has attended Vipassana retreats. It stands out a mile.

But of course I wont. :smile:
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Alex123
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Typically on the interviews in popular methods the suggestions were all the same "just observe!" or "don't forget to label that".
And sometimes one simply needs to be told that over and over again.
Why can't a discerning person tell him/herself that? Not everyone needs a "babysitter" (no offense). Today many people have access to very good books, so it is possible to have a lot of good theoretic knowledge. I believe more in the suttas than some modern interpreters today. Just like a person can delude himself, so can the teacher delude himself, unless the teacher is an Aryan. Even if a teacher is an Ariyan, even that is no guarantee that the person can teach and teach well. Even Pacceka Buddha cannot teach Dhamma to others even though being higher than Arhat and any alive teacher today. So what can we say about simple lay teacher Joe working in a Radio Shack or something? The best he can do is directly quote the scriptures to which many of us have access today.
tiltbillings wrote: Also, all the books in the world cannot protect one from the all too easy self-delusion that arises from wanting something special in one's practice, especially when one has an unusual experience or has a jhana experience. Way too easy to make more out those things than is really there.
Being your own meditation teacher is not unlike being your own lawyer.
Meditator should not consider him/herself being anything, nor should desire to become anyone or anything. VsM offers plenty of warnings about "corruptions of insight" so as long as one is honest with oneself, this will be deal with. In any case Dhamma has to be followed by each person for him/herself.
PeterB wrote:I would go further Mike. I think a lot of the online advice is positively UNhelpful.
Right. It is good to look in the most original books that one can get access to... In DN16 the Buddha told us that Sutta-Vinaya is the teacher when He is gone.
The Buddha didn't appoint any person to be The Teacher.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Typically on the interviews in popular methods the suggestions were all the same "just observe!" or "don't forget to label that".
And sometimes one simply needs to be told that over and over again.
Why can't a discerning person tell him/herself that? Not everyone needs a "babysitter" . . . .
You can tell yourself whatever you want, and certainly you can tell yourself that you won't let your fears, ignorance, delusion, and wishful thinking get in the way of what you are telling yourself.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
MattJ
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by MattJ »

I also don't think a teacher is required, especially not for keeping the precepts!

However, I have found teachers at times to be indispensable. This is especially true in the beginning. A beginning meditation student is facing not only a lifetime of unwholesome habits, but a world which tosses many obstacles at you. It is like we're drunk, asleep, and in the middle of a dream. It is easier if you work with some one who is more awake.

I spent a while doing phone retreats with Shinzen Young. Some teachers are available even if you are far away.
http://zenanddao.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Alex123
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Why can't a discerning person tell him/herself that? Not everyone needs a "babysitter" . . . .
You can tell yourself whatever you want, and certainly you can tell yourself that you won't let your fears, ignorance, delusion, and wishful thinking get in the way of what you are telling yourself.

The teacher him/herself can have "fears, ignorance, delusion, and wishful thinking" so personal ignorance can just substituted with personal ignorance of the teacher. I believe that suttas are the best teacher, and some parts of VsM (dealing with meditation) are also very helpful.

If even Pacceka Buddhas cannot teach Dhamma, nothing to say about ordinary (or most) teachers.


Four great authorities. No matter what monk or group of monks state, it should be compared to Suttas and Vinaya.
AN 4.180 and also found in DN16

There can be a very learned elder who is of Wrong View, and has a large following. - AN 5.88 (A III. 114)
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Why can't a discerning person tell him/herself that? Not everyone needs a "babysitter" . . . .
You can tell yourself whatever you want, and certainly you can tell yourself that you won't let your fears, ignorance, delusion, and wishful thinking get in the way of what you are telling yourself.

The teacher him/herself can have "fears, ignorance, delusion, and wishful thinking" so personal ignorance can just substituted with person ignorance of the teacher. I believe that suttas are the best teacher, and some parts of VsM (dealing with meditation) are also very helpful.
Suttas may be the best teachers, but are you able to listen to them without your fears, ignorance, delusion, and wishful thinking get in the way ?

As for teachers' fears, ignorance, delusion, and wishful thinking, there is no guarantee, but a teacher choosen carefully will be one who is less caught up in these things than oneself, having some degree of insight into the process of awakening.

You don't need a teacher, just like you do not need a lawyer in court. You can be your own teacher, which is not at all unlike being your own lawyer.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by octathlon »

Ben wrote: To be honest, "required" is not a word I would use. I apologise if it appears I am eel-wriggling.
That's OK, I know it's not necessarily a simple yes or no question. :)
Ben wrote:I have seen some people excel on their own but I have seen many more who, in the absence of teacher or retreat, misunderstanding something and develop a wrong view to which they become very attached. That is where I think the problem lies (from my perspective at least). And I believe for those people it may have been better just to concentrate on dana, sila and pariyatti than attempt meditation without support.
That sounds reasonable.
Ben wrote:I also recognize that some people may not be proximate to a meditation centre and teacher and that their only access to meditation practice is via CD or book. In such a case I would recommend that they make contact with people who are experiencd in the meditation practice one is doing who are willing to be their practice "buddies" and be ok with answering questions.
Would you consider the people on this forum to meet that requirement? I know no other Buddhist practitioners in my town, though I'm sure there must be some.
Well, I did meet one person last year who said he was a Buddhist after he heard me tell someone else I was studying it. I was certainly surprised because he had been spouting off all kinds of ego-centric, self-promoting stuff all evening. He proceeded to tell me I should meditate on drawing in negative energy from the world and "transforming" it into positive energy or something like that. :o I told him I already had more than enough negativity of my own to transform thank you very much. :)
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Alex123
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote: As for teachers' fears, ignorance, delusion, and wishful thinking, there is no guarantee, but a teacher choosen carefully will be one who is less caught up in these things than oneself, having some degree of insight into the process of awakening.
And how can you be sure that your choice of the teacher is the right one?
tiltbillings wrote: You don't need a teacher, just like you do not need a lawyer in court. You can be your own teacher, which is not at all unlike being your own lawyer.

We have a teacher it is called Sutta-Vinaya, and some commentaries such as VsM have interesting and helpful instructions on meditation. Nothing to say about many good meditation books written by good monks.
Last edited by Alex123 on Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: As for teachers' fears, ignorance, delusion, and wishful thinking, there is no guarantee, but a teacher choosen carefully will be one who is less caught up in these things than oneself, having some degree of insight into the process of awakening.
And how can you be sure that your choice of the teacher is good one?
Time and practice.
We have a teacher it is called Sutta-Vinaya, and some commentaries such as VsM have interesting and helpful instructions on meditation.
You have a collection of texts that you interpret.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:You have a collection of texts that you interpret.
One can get many good books on meditation written by good knowledgeable monks in order to know various different perspectives. What is wrong in reading good Dhamma books that contain instructions on how to meditate, etc?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You have a collection of texts that you interpret.
So one can get many good books on meditation written by good knowledgeable monks in order to know various different perspectives. What is wrong in reading good Dhamma books that contain instructions on how to meditate?
Nothing. I did not say that there was, but a book can not know you, hear your voice, see your body language, sense your feelings, ask you questions and all the other things that goes with human interaction.

You certainly can practice on your own, but a good teacher is a good thing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: does anyone here do kasina meditation?

Post by octathlon »

bodom wrote: Having a "teacher" is ideal but is not an absolute requirement. Having good experienced friends to discuss your practice with such as here at Dhamma Wheel is a blessing. Please dont give up your sitting practice because you dont have access to a teacher. Mindfulness of breathing can be undertaken by anyone and will produce good results without a teacher sitting over you watching every breath.
Buddhadasa Bhikkhu:

The next consideration is what they call an "acariya (teacher, master)". But in truth, even in the old training systems, they did not talk much about "acariya." They called such a person a "good friend (kalyana-mitta)." To say "friend" - an advisor who can help us with certain things - is correct. We should not forget, however, principle that no one can help someone else directly. Yet nowadays, everyone wants to have a teacher to supervise them! A good friend is someone who has extensive personal experience and knowledge about the meditation practice or whatever else it is that we are striving to do. Although he is able to answer questions and explain some difficulties, it is not necessary for him to sit over us and supervise every breath. A good friend who will answer questions and help us work through certain obstacles is more than enough. To have such a kalyana-mitta is one more thing to arrange.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/books ... athing.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Thanks for this answer, Bodom. It sounds encouraging, but I don't feel I made any progress with my mindfulness of breathing even after several months of almost-daily practice. I don't necessarily blame it on not having a teacher, though. I may be doing something wrong but as you say, it's pretty simple! It is more likely that I would need to increase session times or have patience and continue steadfastly, but I have just burned out on it I guess. It's funny, I actually did a lot better when I first started and it gradually went downhill from there.
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