Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cooran
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by cooran »

Hello Pink, all,

There are no hells in the Human realm. What we experience is just the intense suffering within the Human realm.
According to the Teachings, one may or may not be reborn in a Hell Realm due to kammic accumulations.
The SammaSamBuddha is born in the Human Realm because there is 'just enough' suffering mixed with 'just enough' happiness for the Teachings to have the best effect.

It is simply poetic licence to call any mental or physical state in the human realm 'hell'. It just leads to confusion.

Yes, we've all suffered - some terribly. You cannot know the citta of another - you cannot know what any others of us have suffered ... physically, emotionally or mentally.
Most of us don't reveal it.

But it is still just Human-realm Suffering.

metta
Chris
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by pink_trike »

Chris wrote:Hello Pink, all,

There are no hells in the Human realm. What we experience is just the intense suffering within the Human realm.
According to the Teachings, one may or may not be reborn in a Hell Realm due to kammic accumulations.
The SammaSamBuddha is born in the Human Realm because there is 'just enough' suffering mixed with 'just enough' happiness for the Teachings to have the best effect.

It is simply poetic licence to call any mental or physical state in the human realm 'hell'. It just leads to confusion.

Yes, we've all suffered - some terribly. You cannot know the citta of another - you cannot know what any others of us have suffered ... physically, emotionally or mentally.
Most of us don't reveal it.

But it is still just Human-realm Suffering.

metta
Chris
Perhaps it is poetic license to understand the hells described in the suttas as literal, ignoring that they may have been piercing skillful means suitable to a certain time/place that is long gone.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings


I agree with Pink, all the hells are right here, they can be in the next mind moment


These are more fearful than any lake of fire, since we know their pain to be very real and sadly how easy it can be sometimes to fall into the depths of them


It doesnt matter to me if they are real after death, knowing the pain of them now is enough to make one purify virtue so as not to enter any kind of hell, anywhere or in any form


Metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ordinaryperson
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ordinaryperson »

I can recall several dreams I had of entering hell a while back and they were very real that I can still remember them so clearly until today so make it what you will. Here are some of the descriptions.

1) I was crossing a lake with all sort of corpses in them. I mean all sorts. e.g. bursting stomach with intestine all over, "inflatable" corpses, skin peeling off, semi-submerged corpses, hacked bodies, children, adult, olds, young, male and female all in the lake. I was crossing the lake to a nearby train station on the opposite side of the lake by the way. I think I also noticed several mountains surrounding the lake (big lake) but the mountains were fairly barren but yet I could see something sticking up like tiny trees. But there were not trees. The lake has light breeze and water was very clear.

2) Another dream was me wondering into another hell of some sort where I felt a bit like entering a cave that was damp, dark, slimy, stale air and with little sunlight. Then I saw a group of people, four I think, wearing white clothing with long messy hairs with a chain tight to their waist belts and the belts contain spikes that punctured their skins. I think they were "human mules" pulling in circle a giant granite milling stone. Their white clothing, around the waist, was completely soaked with blood. I saw that when they slowed down to take a break by removing their belts temporarily. I think I saw a girl. She looked sad, very sad but suffered in silent and yet did cry or complain. Just like someone has given up hope. She was taking off her belt.

3) Then to another hall where everyone was sitting reading books with the "master or teacher" in front of them. The room was a cave that was damp, dark, slimy, stale air and with candle light on the wall. They all looked at me when I accidentally walked into their room but continued reading. The room/cave looked a very long and never ending so I walked on.

4) Then to another room where every stood naked on a staircase like stand packed like sardines and someone walked in to give everyone a cup of water to drink ... then I woke up.

There you go. They were all very real for me and did not have the "abstract" feel to them and the only thing was I could not smelt the odour very well but I could feel the breeze all over so for me I think they were real hell.

How I got there I do not know but I also dreamed of visiting a place full of monks.

:anjali:
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

clw_uk wrote:I agree with Pink, all the hells are right here, they can be in the next mind moment
Many people do not believe in literal hell realms. I wonder if those same people believe that a human being can be reborn after death in the animal realms, for example as a horse, bird, fish, or insect. Those realms of existence are undeniably real.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I agree with Pink, all the hells are right here, they can be in the next mind moment
Many people do not believe in literal hell realms. I wonder if those same people believe that a human being can be reborn after death in the animal realms, for example as a horse, bird, fish, or insect. Those realms of existence are undeniably real.

Greetings Bhante

I dont deny animals, what i dont (currently) suscribe to is that he taught there is a rebirth of counsciousness after death into animals, or other realms

The Buddhas noble teachings are about removing all sense of "I" so one can abide in Voidness and truly be at peace, not about reincarnation


Metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ben
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ben »

Hi Craig

I think its a mistake to separate the Buddha's teachings from post-mortem rebirth. In fact, I don't believe you can separate the two without distorting the Buddha's teachings to one's own predelictions and delusions. No personal criticism intended. If you survey the Sutta Pitaka and the Abhidhamma you will see that the doctrine of rebirth not only appears everywhere you look, but key aspects of the teachings don't make much sense without rebirth.

If, Craig, you find the concept of rebirth hard to accept, then for the time being lay it to the side and continue with your practice. Denying the reality of rebirth without having developed your own experiential wisdom may become an obstruction for further development on the path. For the time being, consider trying to keep your mind open with relation to some aspects of the teaching that are challenging for you.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Ordinaryperson
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ordinaryperson »

I think the best thing to do is to try to understand Realms of Existence and to investigate them a bit more as such teaching is not there simply to force us into submission using scare tactic. They are explained by Buddha for a good reason. i.e. some of us might end up there one day if we simply thread the wrong path.

So if one does not consider the Realms of Existence as real then what about sentient beings?

:anjali:

p/s: I am pleased to see Bhikkhu Pesala posting again as I think he was excluded from another forum.
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Ben
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ben »

Hi Ordinaryperson
Ordinaryperson wrote:p/s: I am pleased to see Bhikkhu Pesala posting again.
Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

Sangham saranam gacchami!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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pink_trike
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by pink_trike »

This is a time of dissolution when all our hungrily cherished institutionalized towers of babel (babble) are crumbling away (whether we acknowledge it or not). The modern world is peaking in babble-time as the foundations of our most revered stories are revealing themselves as false.

Look at xtianity with millions of fervent believers, churches numbering in the hundreds of thousands, millions of serious theological books, billions of lines of biblical commentary, endless biblical debate - that have all been all based on the false assumption that Jesus was an actual person, and that there is somewhere a literal heaven and hell within which we will be literally reborn based on our actions - all crumbling away in light of modern scholarly research and the growing awareness that "Jesus" was an allegorical figure that symbolized the Sun - part of an ancient imaginative framework used to tell a ancient astronomy story about the cyclical movements of "The Heavens" and the real, verifiable effects that these movements have on the planet and it's inhabitants. Practical stories that have been spun into amnesia-spawned nonsensical babble - the original wisdom message (science and a medicinal way of life, not theology) buried and hidden - replaced by literalism and a fear-based moral code, with the symbolic references either no longer recognized or wrongly interpreted in ways that reify the delusion.

Buddhist symbology and the Buddhist Suttas are chock-a-block full of references to this same exact story and include myriad symbolic references that match those found in the wisdom stories of nearly all premodern societies that all were telling the same story as the one that was encoded into a popular story about a wise man (who varied from culture to culture), born of a virgin birth, lived as a prince, who let go of the old way, and offered humankind a new way - a survival guide for life in an ever-changing world - specifically referencing the gap time of chaos that arises between eras. It is interesting to note that the approximatized date of the "Buddha's birth" coincides with an important, significant milestone in the movements of the Sun and solar system through the approx. 26,000 year wheel of time - that was known and witnessed by nearly all premodern advanced cultures (and verified by modern astronomy). Wheel, lion, pillar, broken axil, fig tree, etc... just a few among many symbols that play important roles in this ancient widespread body of astronomical knowledge. Also, it isn't just coincidence that the system of symbolic numbers found in Buddhism far predate the institution of Buddhism itself in premodern teachings from around the globe - related to astronomy. Did "The Buddha" exist? Or was he yet another allegorical representation of "The Light of the World" (budh), coinciding with the Sun moving into the current astronomical era? Imo, he (perhaps) only existed as Siddhārtha Gautama, who was aware of the astronomical wisdom of his time (having had the benefit of education afforded to the wealthy) and who taught humanity through psychology, parable, and allegory how to live on a volatile, ever-changing planet with a mind prone to building towers of babble and then believing them to the detriment of all living beings.

The intelligent medicinal practices found within Buddhism can be verified in this life, not just within our own experience - but also when we extend our understanding of them as being one part of a terrestrial survival guide for all living beings - part science, part practical application. Everything else (especially literal interpretations of post mortem literal rebirth) is best viewed with one eyebrow mindfully raised, ideally within a broad global context that includes related wisdom teachings that predate the institution of Buddhism. It's a time to look outside the box, and we have the tools to do it - or we can cling to the tower. I see this as consistent with the Dharma (which the institution of Buddhism set out to contain).
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ben
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ben »

Hi Pink

There is no clinging going on. I am merely suggesting that one puts to the side for the time being any part of the doctrine that is unacceptable and to keep one's mind open. It is one's own wisdom, developed through the practice of samatha and vipassana and through the development of one's paramitas, that will answer questions regarding the reality of rebirth, kamma or some other aspect/s of the teaching that one may dismiss as smbolism or cultural accretion. This is what I think the Buddha extolled his disciples when he said Ehi passiko! (see for yourself!)
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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pink_trike
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by pink_trike »

Yes, I completely agree (up to a point). ;)
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: be heedful

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

If the jhanas are experiences of the deva realms and the jhanas are states of the human mind, why would it not also be true that profound "meditations" on hatred or desire or corruption etc. would let a human mind know the hells?

In short, what is the difference, if any, between the hell (or heaven) experienced from the human environment now and the post-mortem hell (or heaven) experience?
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ben wrote:Hi Craig

I think its a mistake to separate the Buddha's teachings from post-mortem rebirth. In fact, I don't believe you can separate the two without distorting the Buddha's teachings to one's own predelictions and delusions. No personal criticism intended. If you survey the Sutta Pitaka and the Abhidhamma you will see that the doctrine of rebirth not only appears everywhere you look, but key aspects of the teachings don't make much sense without rebirth.

If, Craig, you find the concept of rebirth hard to accept, then for the time being lay it to the side and continue with your practice. Denying the reality of rebirth without having developed your own experiential wisdom may become an obstruction for further development on the path. For the time being, consider trying to keep your mind open with relation to some aspects of the teaching that are challenging for you.
Metta

Ben

Hi Ben

I dont advert from rebirth, i did accept it

Could you elaborate on how taking away post-mortem rebirth distorts the teachings? Im not trying to be confronational :smile: but if i understand your argument for it then i could answer you more fully (perhaps in the rebirth topic since it would probably be out of place in this thread)

No personal criticism intended
None taken :smile: , no one here to offend only empty khandas
If you survey the Sutta Pitaka and the Abhidhamma you will see that the doctrine of rebirth not only appears everywhere you look, but key aspects of the teachings don't make much sense without rebirth.
I know its in the Abhidhamma but i dont go to that for teachings (much). I dont deny that its in the suttas but you will notice that most of the time, its in discussion with brahmins or jains etc. The Buddhas own noble teachings pointed out that having any speculative view about what happens after death rises from and ignorant clinging of and idea of self through identification with one or more of the khandas even if the "person" is aware of it or not

That is why the Buddha didnt hold any speculative view, he explained that he did not because he "has seen with proper wisdom thus; such is form, origination, dissappearence, perception..., feeling..., formations..., consciousness.... (which as he states only arises when there is contact at the six sense bases).

Therefore as he sees the khandas with wisdom and so doesnt identify with them, there are no speculative views about what happens after death, since all these views come to be through clinging and thus claiming an identity

The Buddhas own noble teachings were, (in short), that there is Dukkha through having this sense of "I am". When there is "I am" there is ageing and death since there is identification with that which ages and dies and so the thought "I am ageing and dying". Remove all thoughts and perceptions about self and there is no more identification and so no more ageing, sickness or death ( and no more speculative views about what happneds after death)

Its interesting to note that when the Buddha himself set out to find the deathless, he didnt do it with the view "i will be rebortn and suffer" since, if you interpret it as rebirth, he only seen rebirth on the actual night of his enlightenment. Before that he set out with the view "I am a victim of ageing, sickness and death". This is the right view to start with, this if the first noble truth (although for us our right view includes 4 noble truths since he discovered the rest and taught them to us). If you say that one must have right view of rebirth in order to practice, then you are saying the Buddha himself had wrong view to start with

Its interesting as well of the Buddha states to his Bhikkhus how it is good that they have gone into homelessness with the understanding "I am a victim of old age, sicknes and death" as in right now, not "I will be a vicitm of old age, sickness and death". This is an important point, i feel

The Buddhas teachings are all about how dukkha arises here and now, acknowledgement of that and the practice to remove it, not with the view "i will be reborn and suffer"


Metta

P.S. Sorry for all the paraphrasing, im doing this before i start work, if you want me to back up with suttas i will happily do so later on tonight :smile:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by BlackBird »

Thank you for reiterating the reality of life, Venerable Pesala, how easy it is to fall from the path, and the consequences it has.

I think Pink, Clw_UK: We need to remember that the 31 planes of existence are taught as being real places of rebirth by the Buddha.

If one has seen the Dhamma, on even a very superficial level in every day life, and realised: "This here, the Buddha taught this." Then one gains conviction that indeed the Buddha must be omniscient. If one believes the Buddha to be enlightened, then one can deduce that the Hell realms are infact real places that sentient beings are reborn.

Hope you all had a day which was filled with good practise, and little suffering.

With metta
Jack :heart:
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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